In recent years, politically charged topics have become the forefront of news and media, and with the rise of access to digitally distributed media, it has become commonplace for clients to have concerns about the possible impact of political events on their portfolios. These concerns have compelled many clients to reach out to their advisors, urging them to make changes in response to the political environment. And though clients may mean well, making changes to investments based on political events is often not a good idea for the long-term health of their financial plans, as well-designed portfolios are designed to safeguard against market turbulence that might result from those events. Importantly, political topics can often be emotionally charged and tied directly to a client’s core beliefs, which can make it challenging for advisors to convince their clients to stay the course and to reassure them they have an optimal portfolio strategy in place.
In our 97th episode of Kitces & Carl, Michael Kitces and client communication expert Carl Richards discuss how advisors can address clients who want to change their portfolio strategy in response to the political environment and offer ways to communicate with clients about how their current investment strategy is the most optimal plan.
As a starting point, it’s important for advisors to have a defensible portfolio strategy that they can explain to the client, walking them through the investment choices made and why they should stay the course. When having the conversation, listening carefully and empathetically to the client’s apprehensions to understand their motivation is key. Some clients may just want to express their fears to someone who understands their situation and is willing to listen, as the information they are reacting to may be scary for them and the outlook for their future. But when clients feel strongly about taking action to protect their portfolio, the advisor can continue the dialogue – after listening to the client’s concerns – by suggesting a step-by-step review of the financial plan and the client’s initial statement of financial purpose, giving the client and advisor an opportunity to review and reconfirm all the choices that have been made. This allows the advisor to present a logical case that the plan is solid, built to protect against market turbulence, and designed to meet the client’s stated goals. At the same time, this process allows the client to express their concerns and feel heard, and be reminded of the important financial goals they wanted their plan to help them achieve.
Ultimately, the key point is that when clients are overwhelmed with concerns about external events that can impact their investment portfolio, advisors have a valuable opportunity to support their clients and to help them understand how their financial plan is designed to meet their goals even in times of political turmoil. And as new issues arise between meetings with clients, listening and connecting with empathy can give advisors the chance to alleviate their clients’ escalating anxieties by reassuring them that their financial plan is still in a good place!
***Editor's Note: Can't get enough of Kitces & Carl? Neither can we, which is why we've released it as a podcast as well! Check it out on all the usual podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts (iTunes), Spotify, and Stitcher.
- Kitces & Carl Ep 96: Handling Politically Charged Clients Who Make It Uncomfortable To Be Their Advisor
- Kitces & Carl Ep 15: Why Are We So Afraid To Just Listen
- Kitces & Carl Ep 17: Responding With Empathy When Clients Call About ‘Scary’ Markets
- Kitces & Carl Ep 42: Overcoming Objections By Asking More Questions To Truly Understand A Client’s Needs
- Nick Murray
- Michael Bungay Stanier
- “The Advice Trap: Be Humble, Stay Curious & Change the Way You Lead Forever” by Michael Bungay Stanier
Kitces & Carl Podcast Transcript
Michael: Good afternoon, Carl.
Carl: Greetings, Michael Kitces. How are you?
Michael: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. How are you these days?
Carl: Super good. Yeah, things are great. Spending lots of time in the mountains, that's super good.
Michael: Super good's pretty super!
Carl: I'm doing great. I got the lightning bolts again!
Michael: Well, so you brought the lightning today, so apparently that means we have to stay politically charged...
Michael: ...for another episode. We have to stay charged.
Carl: That's right.
Michael: I love these shirts. So, who is it again that we give the not-sponsor but apparently might become sponsor? Shout out to...who makes the shirts?
Carl: All on Twitter and Instagram, start hitting Howler Brothers.
Michael: Howler Brothers.
Carl: Howler Brothers. In fact...
Michael: Like howl at the moon, Howler Brothers.
Carl: Like Howler monkey. Let's just see real quick. I'm going to find...while we're talking about it. [email protected] on Twitter. Yeah, we tried this once with Sharpie and it didn't work. Let's see if we can get Carl sponsored by Howler Brothers.
Michael: All right. I still feel like Sharpie would be a better fit though.
Carl: I do too, but man.
Michael: If anybody knows anybody at Sharpie HQ, yeah.
Carl: Yeah. For sure. What are we talking about? Political things, apparently.
The Importance Of Greeting Clients With Empathy [01:37]
Michael: Well, so I wanted to actually continue the discussion around political things, as hard as it is not my favorite space to be in, but I think...not the favorite space for a lot of us to be in, but we keep getting put there in client conversations, so like, "Let's own our current reality." So, last time we had talked about the clients that sometimes get so fixated into a particular political thing and direction, right, whatever side it is you're on, we're not here to talk about either side of the political aisle, it happens on both sides. The client that just kind of gets so far down that road that the reality is we may just have to disconnect from them, and then we try to do it as graciously as possible and preserve some of our own mental health and move on. But there's a subset of folks that...they saw something political, they read something political, it's out there on CNBC, it shows up in their newsfeed, someone forwarded it to them, suddenly we're in the middle of this potentially very politically charged thing or issue that's out there. And it starts showing up in portfolio questions, "Do we need to get out or get in or change this thing?"
And I find these are not necessarily the clients that are so far out there we can't bring them back. It's actually the other types of clients that I thought would be helpful to talk about today, which is the ones that maybe they can be brought back in, we can talk them off the ledge...but we have to talk them off the ledge. And we're not just talking them off the scary market ledge, we're talking them off the politically-charged market ledge, which I feel is maybe a little different. Maybe you'll tell me it's not, but how do we start thinking about these clients where they're maybe not all in whatever the extreme version of the ideologies on either end, but they keep getting roped in, and then the conversation comes up, and then we got to deal with the conversation, and we're trying to figure out how do you deal with the conversation?
Carl: Yeah. No, totally. Look, the reality is you would be crazy as a human right now to not at least have had the thought, "Hey, how's this going to affect my investments, my money, my financial plan." Because it's all over that...not just the financial pornography network, it's all over every network, and so you've got all the people on the financial pornography network saying how it's going to affect inflation, and the fed, and etc., etc., etc., so.
Michael: Business opportunities and taxes and government stability, and just all things in all directions.
Carl: Not to mention... Yeah, real government stability and a crazy...whatever without... Yeah. So, to me, I actually feel like it's not that much different than other...well, look, they're always different, they're always different. But I think in terms of the way we would process it, it would be very similar. This is just...this is another piece of news and information that may or may not have an effect in the future that we don't know the effect it will have. It's like every other problem, which is always a projection of something that may or may not happen in the future, and so we've got to be pretty confident in the ability to take people from way out in the branches, which is where they're swinging. It's super volatile in windstorms way out on branches. Of course, it's scary, this branch is moving all over the place, right? We've got to figure how to take them from there back to the...we've got to walk them through.
So, to me, forget all the, "I want to cry on your couch," stuff, let's just get hardcore about this. You should have a defensible process for making the decisions you made. Just find a way to walk people through the defensible process. If you can't defend your investment portfolio by walking people through the decisions that you've made just on the investment side, just walking people through, "Here's... Yes, I think about that." The big risk I think we play in all of these times is being too dismissive. And you see this play out on Twitter all the time, like, "Oh, you're stupid if you think about these things." No. It's a reasonable concern, I have a hard time staying away from it. So, walk people back through like, "I hear you," right? So, the scary markets, the political scary markets process starts the same. You greet people with empathy, that's step number one. "Hey, it sounds really scary," it shouldn't be that hard right now. I don't think anybody would have a hard time being truthful when they say this, "Hey, it sounds like that's really scary," right? And here's the empathy, "I get scared right now if I watch the news." Most of us I think can say that truthfully. If you can't say that truthfully, don't say it, it's not that important. Sounds really scary, "I get scared if I watch the news," right, just a little bit of empathy before we dive into that. Because the challenge, of course, is to refute point by point by point why this doesn't matter. It's not really what people need at first.
Michael: I was going to say. Because that's where I go, "Allow me to pull out my 17-point PowerPoint slide about why your thing is not going to be a thing."
Carl: Yeah. And look, there are some people that that's exactly where you should go first. I'm just going to use stereotypical engineers and your favorite people, spreadsheet-wielding nerds, right? Go, boom, no problem. But for most humans, there should be a hug first, right? Hug first, lecture later. Hug first, facts later. This is an irrational...in hindsight, to blow out of a really well-defined plan because of something in the news is irrational. When somebody's in the middle of making irrational decisions, the last thing they want is somebody to reason with them. Try that with your teenager, right? They don't want to hear that. What they want to hear is like, "Oh, I get it. I wanted to do that when I was your age too. How does that feel?"
So, first, we're just greeting with empathy. I love to create a pause after the greet with empathy. I use the "please hold" method, like, "Would it be okay if I grab your file?" So, we're trying to get them out of the branches. Remember too, the greet with empathy part is so important because they've been thinking about this for a long time before they called you. They know they're going to get a lecture, right? They know what you're going to say. So, the fact that they called...first, I loved when it switched for me, when it went from, "I'm annoyed that this client's calling. Why don't they trust me? Why don't they believe me? Don't you know I'm doing my job?", when it went from that to, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so deeply honored that you would call me." I'm not saying those words. I'm just saying that attitude of like, "Well, I'm so glad you called."
Michael: Well, I do think there's a power to that worth remembering and recognizing. Look, if they were so far down that road that they were ready to just whatever, blow out your portfolio and go some other direction, you wouldn't find out because they sent you an email or called, you'd find out because you got the notification that you've been delinked and the money's transferring. Often the call or the outreach comes because, at least subconsciously, they may want to be talked off this ledge or talked out of this. But I think with the caveat...but they may need a reason or some help to get there, and I think as you've absolutely pointed out, but they also may be in an emotional space that they need to come down from that first before you can have the, "Let me talk you out of this," conversation.
Carl: Yeah. No. I totally agree with all that. That's really, really important to understand, and I think...and the second part to get you in that mindset is to remember this is just your job. How great is it that they're calling you? How great is it from their perspective? I'm deeply grateful that that person out there...I'm pointing out the window, has you to call. Because most of those people out there don't have you, they have a joker that's going to do something crazy and sell them...the joker's going to sell them something that plays into these fears because they'll make some more money, so we all know that story. So, how great is it they have you, greet with empathy, create a little bit of space, this is just science, right? People are in fight-or-flight mode.
Building A Logical Case To Defend The Current Investment Strategy [10:53]
Michael: So, come back to I guess just the space again, or how this works for...we'll put some links in the podcast notes for folks that want to go back. I know you had talked about this many, many podcast episodes ago, I think it was back in the early days of "Kitces and Carl." But for those maybe you haven't gone back, can you just take us through...just this first part of the conversation, as you said, your empathetic hug, and then create some space. I need my script again, how does this...
Carl: Quickly, it's literally like, "Hey, Martha, thanks for calling today. Hey John, thanks for calling today. Sounds like this is really important to you. Tell me, have you seen what's going on the news?" They're like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah." "I get it. That's true, I get scared when I watch the news today too." We've been done a little empathy. Step two is create space. I like the "please hold" method. And this isn't just assuming on the phone, we can talk about it in person too, it's not that hard. I just say, "Hey, would you mind...John and Martha, can I put you on hold for a minute while I go grab your file? I just want to grab my notes so I can review them, so I can be prepared." We can hold the call.
Michael: Well, I guess in the digital sense, "Can I put you on hold for a moment? I just want to pull up some of your information on the system here."
Carl: Look, you may have one of those fancy things that has already pulled it up because it's linked to your phone, and when they called it, who cares, you still put them on hold.
Michael: They don't know. They haven't been in your office on that side of the screen. They don't know.
Carl: You just put them on hold again. If we're in person, it comes up, you can say, "Oh, geez, John and Martha, I didn't realize this was something we were going to talk about. Can I just real quickly go grab some notes I left in the other room," or "Can I go grab a part of your file?"
Michael: Do you have a generic set of notes that are always in the other room?
Carl: I don't know. I don't know. Maybe you can...
Michael: You've got to come back to the office with something, man.
Carl: Go review an email. Like, "Can I go review something real quick?" How about, "Hey, this is really important. You know what, I realized I forgot water. I'm going to go grab us all water. I'll be right back." Whatever you need to do, just to leave the room.
Michael: Okay. I'm better with that. But the point here is just you're literally trying to...if they're fired up on something, you're literally trying to just create a pause.
Carl: Down-regulate a second. Now, what I would do, and I'm not suggesting this because I don't...look...but now, I would literally...so much of the work I do now is felt and I can feel it. And so, if I were an advisor now, I would say, "Hey, you know what, John and Martha, this sounds like it's been pretty intense. Would it be okay if we just paused for a second?" Again, I know that's not going to fly with some people, that's too Wango Pango, too California woo woo, whatever. But I would say, "I can feel this has been super intense, would it be okay if we just pause for a sec... maybe just...just a breath or two," right? And I would literally look them in the eyes, and say, "John and Martha, I want you to know, I've got you," right? And I would say… It's funny I get emotional about this because I can feel it, right? Like, "You're safe here in this conversation we're going to have, I've got you."
I'd have zero problems doing that, and I'm not suggesting anybody else should. Whatever we're doing, we're creating a little bit of space. All that is, is pulling them down from flight or fight, right? They've made a really hard decision to call you, they've been thinking about it for a long time, they're pretty fired up, right? You come back in, what's in the notes? The notes is statement of financial purpose, goals. We've got to get them back to that foundation first. We're going to move up. I think of it as a pyramid. If I were drawing this, at the bottom of the pyramid I would have purpose and plan, right? Just remind, "Hey," and what I'd say in these notes, "John and Martha, before we get to these really important things that are happening that are on your mind...and by the way, really important to me too before we get there, I just want to make sure we're the same page. When we first met," or "When we met last quarter," or "When we talked last time," I would prefer to say, "When we first met, and every time since, you've told me that what's most important to you is time with your family mainly outside and serving in your community." Insert statement of financial purpose, "Are we still on the same page there?" "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally." And I found these to be pretty like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get to the important stuff." They're just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me real quickly." "Out of that, we decided that you had the following goals, right?" And I would move up this ladder to goals, and then we'd review the goals, "Are those still true?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally." Because what you're doing here is building the logic for the reason that you're just going to...in the end, you're going to tell them to stay put, but you're building the logic.
Goals, the next thing would be process, specifically around the investment process or any part of the planning process. You'd say, "Hey, if you remember..." The investment piece. "Hey, if you remember, we put together this portfolio to help give us the highest likelihood of meeting those goals and that statement of financial purpose," right? "Remember, and would it be helpful if I dive in more deeply?" Like, "By the way we reviewed all of these. These investments are behaving exactly as you'd expect them to behave in this kind of a market, nothing's broken here," right? So, you're just locking them into like, "Okay, here." And then you get to the top, which is...turns out the product...the economy and the market are scary, not the product... Sorry, the economy market news is at the very, very top. It's the only thing we...we don't have a lot of control over that, right? And again, we can talk about the last sentence, but I'll just pause there, is that helpful?
Michael: Yeah. I think that's helpful for just the flow of how we're navigating through this. I guess...well, the irony of this, although also the point since we're trying to stay politically neutral, but it almost doesn't matter what the thing is, it's still really coming back to this flow anyways.
Carl: Well, I think you're just trying to build...you should be able to present a defensible argument as to why you're going to suggest either, A, the changes you're going to suggest, or, B, more likely stay the course. And I kind of feel like we have to kind of build the argument and political is... So, when we get to this top piece, we can say, "If you remember the portfolio we built, the reason we built it, it was intentionally designed. Each piece of it is important individually, but they're also very important because of the interaction between the pieces. And we built it based on..." This is my favorite phrase, "We built it based on the weighted evidence of history. Remember the tools we use, incorporate..." Go back whatever the number is now, "...100 years of history. And in those 100 years, we've had lots of political changes. And I realize we haven't had these exact ones because we've never had the exact ones, but..." And then it's helpful to know a little bit. I would point back to the Cuban Missile Crisis and, right, Nixon, anything that you think like, "Go back and read your Nick Murray and political history. Nick's really good at this." "Yes, the thing that's going on right now is new and novel, and we didn't know it was going to happen, but we knew things like this were going to happen because they've always happened," right? And it was...
Michael: "Yeah. But Carl, it's different now. Didn't you see because of so and so?"
Carl: "Totally agree. It is different now. It is different now. This is a new thing, but new things have been happening, the only thing we know for sure is that there will be surprises and the weighted evidence of history is full of surprises that we didn't know before." And so, my ending of this story is almost always...and this was intentional, I want a little bit of buy-in here. So, the thing I would always say at the end is like, "Look, so I know it feels unsatisfactory.” And it's unsatisfactory to me too. What I want to deliver to you is certainty, but anybody who promises certainty should not be trusted. And then what I say is, "So, it reminds me a little bit of the Winston Churchill quote about democracy that 'It's the worst form of government ever created, except for all the others.' And sometimes this form of planning, this form of investing feels like the worst form of investing because I can't deliver you the certainty that you want so desperately, but it's only the worst form except for all the others. So, if it were okay with you..." this is the part I really like, this buy-in piece, "If it's okay with you, I'd have no problem with us just sort of sticking with the plan that we've built as we've reviewed it," right? That's how I would have that discussion.
Recognizing When Clients Just Want To Vent [20:21]
Michael: So, this reminds me...so I had an advisor friend that had a version of this...I'm thinking all the way back, this was, '08, '09 financial crisis, where there was another version of this. It wasn't quite political, but it was...the whole financial system is melting down, it's all coming to an end, and a lot of the fears that were cropping up then. And I wish I had written down what he said and how he said it because I only remember a vague version of it now. But he would essentially start off the conversation with like, "Hey, I just want to check here, did you call me about this because you need a space to vent about it, or did you call because you like my views about how I think this will affect your portfolio?" And he would just put that out there…so people have to say, "I really just need to vent." It's like "Cool, I'm totally here," and, "Vent away," and, "I'm actually really relieved," because if you just want to vent, it usually doesn't actually mean you want to change your portfolio, you just wanted to vent so like, "Hey, vent it all out." And then we'll do the empathetic hug in the end and move on. Or like, "Did you call because you want my views about how this is going to affect your portfolio? So, I think it was his version of basically saying like, "Did you call in to vent or did you call in because you want me to talk you out of this," I think that was where he was going with it, but he had a nicer way of saying it. So, I don't know if that kind of framing works for you or if you have a better way to say that. It stuck in my head for a long time as just another interesting way to frame that conversation. It's not my style, but it seemed to work very well for him.
Carl: No. I love that. I think the only thing I might tweak about that personally...and again, I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong, is I would just assume that they called to vent. Because the problem I think we have is we jump too quickly, we do this all the time, right? We think that we're in the solutions business, and we need to solve the problem, we're really first, at least, in the listening business. And we do this with our spouses, we do this with friends, we do this and...and Michael Bungay Stanger who goes by MBS Works, mbsworks.com, wrote a great book called "The Advice Trap." Yeah, "The Advice Trap? I think it was "The Advice Trap." And he calls it "the advice monster." And so, this is not a unique problem to financial advisors, he's an executive coach, anybody who gives advice for a living, the moment someone even hints at something we think we can solve, raah, out comes the advice monster. And so, I love the framing of, "Stay curious just a little bit longer." So you don't have...there may not be anything for you to solve here.
Michael: Well, I guess that's the question and even why this advisor's framing comes to mind to me. And I'll own, I'm terrible at this, I'm not good in the business context. I'm not good in the home-life context, as my wife can attest. My brain instantly goes to problem-solving. Anytime those moments crop up, I'm horrible at either holding the venting space or just recognizing what's a venting conversation, what's a problem-solving conversation, or figuring out, when are we past the venting stage and in the problem-solving-y stage. So, I guess I'm looking for client advice/marital advice. Just, how do you find that line of...when are we past venting? When are we past venting and problem-solving? Or how do I figure out this really was only ever a venting conversation? I don't need to go to problem-solving at all because we're hanging out in a venting space, and that will be done when we get to the end of the venting.
Carl: It's challenging, right? Sometimes, somebody who's really sad or...this happens a lot if you struggle with depression, you'll tell someone that you're feeling really sad, and they'll immediately...because they're so earnest and helpful, and they love you, they'll immediately dive into trying to solve it like, "Well, did you get a good night's sleep? And how are you eating?" And what you needed most was literally someone just to sit with you, right? Like, "I just need to be heard." And you actually can get to the point where you're like, "No, don't shift into solving mode."
There's that and then there's this place where I think here, it's just interesting to think about that, "Look, it's scary out there, right, this is scary." And I'm not talking about walking spreadsheet people. There are some people who it's never scary for, it's fine. But most humans, it's scary to hear all this kind of news and wonder what it means. And so, I think it would be okay to ask a few questions, like, "It sounds like that's really...it sounds like that's been scary for you. What did you read? When did you first hear this?" And then I think at some point it's okay to just ask the question because this isn't a deep friendship, it's not a marital relationship where you can develop that idea that "Oh, wait, I just need to sit and listen." I think it's okay just to ask, similar to what your advisor friend did, "Hey, would it be helpful...?" I would hesitate to use the word vent just because that has a little bit of a… it’s almost like complain. So, I would just, after I hear you, "I just want you to know I get nervous too when I watch the news right now. Would it be helpful to walk through the process we've used to sort of build your plan at least at a high level, and then at any one of the points if you want me to drop down, I'm happy to go as deep as you want, would that be helpful?" That's how I would handle it.
It got to the point...I had a couple of clients, it was only a handful, like four or five. I can remember some of them specifically that would literally call and say, "Tell me that story again," right? They knew what they were doing. They just wanted reassurance, they knew exactly what they were doing, but they still called and I was grateful for it. So that's kind of how I'd think about it. It wouldn't hurt to just ask after listening, "Hey, would it be helpful if we walk through the process that we use here to make the decisions that we've made, at a high level, and at any point if you want me to drop down deeper, just let me know, would that be helpful?" "No, actually it's fine. Thanks for listening to me. I'll call you next time," or, "Yeah, actually Carl, that'd be great."
Using The W.A.I.T. Method To Connect With Clients [27:46]
Michael: Well, I think it's a powerful reminder, and I'm literally envisioning I may just have to put a sticky on the corner of my screen of just that reminder of, "Remember, they're really probably just want to vent," and I just keep forcing myself back to like, "They're here to vent, and feel heard, and maybe be reassured, and that's it unless they actually escalate it to more than that."
Carl: Very true. I used to write on my wrist. I used to write, W.A.I.T., “Why Am I Talking?"
Michael: That's WMIT.
Michael: Oh, why am I... Okay. No. Why am I talking? Got it.
Carl: Why am I talking? That idea of just one more question. And Michael Bungay Stanier, MBS Works, his favorite question was...and you could do it totally, like, "And what else? And what else? And what else?" Like, "Wow." And you maybe need to repeat. "Oh, yeah, so that's got you a little nervous, I get it totally. And what else?" Yeah. I think we all dive in too fast. One of my friends is sort of super senior in a really huge organization, it happens to be a big church with millions and millions, close to 20 million members. And he was telling me that one of the most important lessons he's learned is to stop talking. He's like, "The more I ask questions, the more I listen, people seem to reach across the table and say, 'Thank you. You've solved my problem,' and they leave, and I never said a word."
So, I think there's some version of all of this...the sort of...and I'm in no way making light, at all, of depression. I'm saying the way you'd handle a sad or depressed friend, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. They don't actually want your solutions. And then all the way to coaches asking, "Hey, and what else? And what else?" All the way to you having a sticky that says, "They just want to vent," me writing it on my wrist, "WAIT." I have a friend that did another version of that, it used to just say on his knuckles...well, it was S, T, and then another letter, and the last letter was U, which was shut the...and then something else up. He used to write that on his knuckles to remind himself, "Just ask more questions, why are you talking?"
Michael: I do have to admit that I feel like it's more useful on your wrist because I can look down at my wrist, I don't really look at my own knuckles, but...
Carl: Yeah. As long as you get it tattooed on your wrist, then you're cool and everything will work perfect.
Michael: There you go. There you go.
Carl: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I hope that's helpful. I think the reminder to all of this is just, "Gosh, they're humans, we're humans, let's make space for empathy." And I go overboard on this, which is why it's so nice to have these conversations with you is...and there may be a time advice is important, facts are important, the spreadsheets matter. It's just let's make sure we're offering advice about the right problem. And the only way to get there is to listen a little bit longer.
Michael: My real takeaway is just that we're going to have to make a clip of that where Carl just says spreadsheets matter.
Carl: Yeah. Oh, for sure. I think we need a Kitces and Carl merch store, and we'll have, "Spreadsheets matter, Carl."
Michael: "Spreadsheets matter, too."
Carl: Exactly. Maybe. Sometimes.
Michael: Fantastic. Thank you, Carl.
Carl: Cheers, Michael. Super fun.