Winning More Clients By Talking Less And Reducing Friction For Prospects: #FASuccess Ep 489 With Sara Grillo

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Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Sara Grillo: LinkedIn | Website
• Transparent Advisor Movement
• Immersion 2027
• Jump Financial Advisor Insights Report
• Bogleheads
• Personal Finance Reddit

Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Sara Grillo, to the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Sara: Hey, Michael. Thanks for having me. Woo-hoo!

Michael: Woo. I'm excited. You are fired up as well. We are going to get into fun things like marketing, sales, and getting prospects to engage with us. And this becomes an interestingly unique challenge for those of us who, I guess, really aren't inclined towards marketing and sales in the first place. We got into this because we want to serve clients, to give advice, and help them achieve their goals.

And sometimes I find I get really cognizant, self-conscious about not coming across as too salesy and too pushy. And because of that, I find a strange paradox emerges, which is the ones who don't want to be too salesy with prospects end up being the ones who communicate least effectively with prospects. Because we, and I'll put myself in this camp historically, we talk too much with prospects because, ironically, sometimes one of the best sales techniques is ask them a question and shush up and let them talk.

Out of guilt that we might be successful with the sales process, we'll throw up roadblocks and barriers to slow the prospect down, just so it's really, really clear we weren't pushy, even in retrospect, all of which basically culminates in some really great client-centric advisors who have remarkable difficulty getting people to pay them for great client-centric advice.

And I know you've spent years helping advisors hone marketing messages, communication, figure out everything from websites to social media and how to do this more effectively. So I'm excited today to talk about all the ways that we may be sometimes unwittingly undermine our own ability as great advisors to convey to prospects that we're great advisors for them, so they want to hire us and work with us for that advice.

Sara: Right on.

Why Common Advisor Marketing Messages Often Don't Resonate With Prospects [04:48]

Michael: So I think to kick off, give us a little bit of context for just who you are and the business services that you offer, so we understand the context, the frame that you're coming from. And then we can talk a little more directly about where do some of these challenges really crop up?

Sara: I help advisors get attention from the people who need them without sounding like they're selling washing machines.

Michael: Without sounding like they're selling washing machines. That's a very visual image of what that feels like.

Sara: Yeah.

Michael: So tell me more about what that means. What do you do or what do you work with them on? What are you involved with?

Sara: I'm a digital marketing specialist for financial advisors. My work entails helping financial advisors either learn how to use social media, learn how to use their websites, or email newsletters, to convey answers to the questions that their prospects and clients are most likely to have on their minds. In some cases, I am a coach where the advisor does the work, and I give them guidance. In many cases, I actually create the content and run the marketing operation for them on an outsourced basis.

Michael: Okay. So that's helpful to understand the framing for this. So, when you then get involved with a new advisor, is there a typical current state of affairs? What are they doing that's maybe not working well or at all already, as their marketing efforts by the time they're engaging you to come in and say, "This isn't working. Sara, please help me?"

Sara: Usually, it's one of two cases. Either the advisor has grown through referrals and word of mouth, and just never done any marketing because they've never had to, or they have been doing marketing and they're frustrated because it's not getting results.

Michael: So, what are the marketing things you find that are not getting results that need the help?

Sara: When people are using cookie-cutter content, when they're overproducing content, when the content is just off because it's not relevant to the prospects. Sometimes there's too much of it. Sometimes there's not enough of it. But most of the time, it's that it's about the advisor and what they want to say, and it's not about the client and what they truly have on their mind.

Nobody wakes up in the middle of the night thinking, "I wonder if I'm at a retirement crossroads. I wonder if I need a personal CFO. I wonder if I'm actively pursuing my path to financial freedom and all the cliches and phrases that you all say on your websites." Nobody. Nobody wakes up in the middle of the night thinking that.

But what they do wake up in the middle of the night thinking is, "What if I run out of money? What if my body doesn't hold up? What if my spouse divorces me? What if the government allows the Social Security trust fund to run down? What's going to happen to me in those cases?"

And I'm not seeing great answers to those. I think the focus should be on the stream of consciousness of the client and the prospect. And when you do that, it becomes a lot easier. But in order to do that, advisors a lot of times have to negate or deny what they've already been taught about marketing, how they've seen a lot of advisors market. And that could be hard to do.

It's also hard because sometimes people are under sales quotas or pressure internally or externally imposed upon them that makes it hard to cope with silence, a gradual process of getting to know somebody to where they would trust you to tell you what they really have on their mind, the patience to observe, sit silently, and allow the process to happen on its own.

All of these are reasons that I tell people, and especially the advisors that are new in the business, "If you have to drive Uber or babysit or do whatever you need to do to pay your bills while you're starting up your practice, I encourage you to pursue that, because only then will you have the ability to see objectively what life looks like from the eyes of the prospect, because you'll be able to hold back your own agenda."

Michael: So I'm struck that you, I guess, took a swing at some sacred cows out of the gate there. I was chuckling a little as you were talking about no one wakes up in the middle of the night worried that they're at a retirement crossroads, or pursuing their path to financial freedom, or feeling like they need a personal CFO, because those are very literally words on a lot of our websites as financial advisors, literally those words.

So I guess, help us understand further. Why don't those land? I don't know, how do we get to the point where we're all using them if that is so not landing with prospects? Do those things really not matter? Are we just talking about the wrong stuff?

Sara: It's not that it's the wrong stuff. It's that, first of all, it's the wrong signal because there's not a great deal of trust in the eyes of the American public for financial advisors. So when you say certain things, it's like you have a neon sign above your head saying, "I'm a financial advisor run in the other direction." These lip service phrases like "peace of mind", "quarterback", "family CFO", "keep your best interest in mind"…"By the way, I'm collecting a 3% commission off your friend from the golf club on all his assets. And he referred me to you, but by the way, I've got your best interest in mind," right? "Boutique wealth management firm"…

All of these things create too much friction in the minds of the prospect. And you'd be better off actually saying nothing. You'd be better off just actually asking them what questions they have. People always ask me, "What should I say for my elevator pitch?" It has to be about them, not you. So I tell people that they would be better off using the elevator pitch, not as an opportunity to broadcast and have it be your personal advertisement, but just say something like, "I help a few friends of mine who are doctors who live in my town with their money." And then sit there in silence, look at their body language, look at their face, and see how they respond. Plant the seed and see how they respond.

Michael: Why do these traditional messages create friction? I think, "We're a boutique wealth management that helps people at the retirement crossroads." What's frictiony about that? What's problematic about that? I get like, maybe I didn't wake up in the middle of the night thinking, "How do I solve my retirement crossroads?" But where is that creating friction or slowing people down?

Sara: Because I don't know what it means.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: What is that? I'm a boutique wealth management shop, boutique. Okay, so that would convey small. So does that mean that that's right for me? If I've got $2 million, am I going to be the biggest fish in the pond or the smallest fish in the pond? Small, what does that mean? Does it mean it's just you? Is that a disadvantage or an advantage? Should I work with someone who's a solo advisor, or do I need a big firm? It's not lining up with me, right? Or wealth management. What does it mean to manage wealth?

My parents had no... I got them a great financial advisor, and they had no idea what a financial plan was. They were like, "Sara, he's going to manage our money. He's going to..." Because I had been helping them with it before. They were like, "He's going to take over the portfolio, but he says he wants to create a financial plan. I don't know if I need a financial plan."

You see, for most people, they don't even understand what a financial plan really is. Does that mean you're going to map out my expenses? Does that mean you're going to tell me I can't get my Starbucks? What is a financial...? Right? What is actually a financial plan? All of these things. We say these things, but that's like the dentist telling you what resin they're going to use in your fillings. What we really don't understand is that we're not looking at it. We're not speaking to people in terms that they really understand.

So, for example, instead of, if you were to elevator pitch and be specific about... And I like the conversational, plant the seed, use it to start a conversation. But if someone were to really press you, "But what do you do?" Then you would say something like, "I work with retirees and pre-retirees in Vienna, Virginia, and the surrounding area who generally have $2 million or more of assets." That would be the way I would start it, because now I'm framing, now I'm creating more of an image in their mind about who the ideal person is.

And this is the other fear, the desperation clutch that people get where they're worried about saying something like that because, oh, well, then what if that person doesn't fit the bill? Well, then why would you want to be talking to them anyways? Find somebody else to talk to. Or they might have somebody great that they could refer to you. Because advisors complain about that, but at the same time, they also complain about, "Well, I just had this prospect meeting that went nowhere."

Well, that was because they didn't really understand what they were getting into when they met with you. And that is your fault because you weren't speaking to them, and you were unwilling to offer up who it is that is your ideal match. So either consciously or subconsciously, in the meeting, you gave them signals that they weren't really the match anyways.

Michael: It strikes me as you... Now frame this further. We all get told since forever, beware using jargon with clients, beware using industry terms that they don't understand, right? Certainly crops up in client meetings to be careful talking about equities because some clients literally don't know that means stocks and may not even really understand how a stock works, depending on their experience.

What strikes me in what you're describing here is that we have a lot of jargon in the "basic" descriptions of who we are and what we do that we probably don't realize is so jargon, right? I thought your example was powerful. I don't think most advisors would envision saying boutique wealth management firm is a highly jargoned, indecipherable, I have no idea what that means set of words. But I think you actually just made a very compelling case and point, like, yeah, people who really have absolutely no experience with our industry really don't know what those words mean and whether those are even good words or not good words.

I say I'm boutique because I used to work at a big firm and I saw things I didn't like at big firms and I want to differentiate from big firms by saying I'm boutique because in my world, small boutique equals good and big firm equals bad, and that's why I put it my name and that doesn't mean any prospect understands why that word is impactful or will interpret it the same way because they're not on the same journey.

Sara: And Michael, it's not even how advisors describe their businesses. It's the content that they produce, trying to get people to trust them. Nobody cares about cash balance plans. I think to this day, I myself, and I'm over 20 years in the industry, I don't really think I even understand what a cash balance plan is. That's such a weird word. Anyways, what does that phrase mean?

Nobody cares about Trump accounts, the Big Beautiful Bill. The stuff that they really care about is if you look on Reddit, they're giving you a very clear indication. There was one posting on Reddit that was really insightful. Someone asked, "Why is one financial advisor twice the amount of money that another financial advisor costs?" But we're not talking about that. We're talking about we're the family CFO, which it's a miss.

Everyone who doesn't believe me, go ahead to your friends and family members who don't know what you do and ask them, "Do you need a personal CFO? Have you ever thought about getting a personal CFO?" And then just see what they say. The best advisors I've seen are not the best advisors in terms of effectiveness when it comes to marketing. The best advisors at marketing are the ones that are able to take that step back and see what they are expressing from the vision of the reader or the listener or whoever it is that they're trying to communicate with. The ones that have total empathy in terms of what do I really look like? It's not the fancy schmancy, oh, I have to go get AI. Oh, I have to go... Someone asked me the other day, "Should I pay for videos?"

All right. Michael, we're going to be here all day if I start unpacking this stuff. It is how all of you get taken on your money, you waste a lot of time, you get discouraged. And furthermore, it prevents a lot of you who I know would run through a wall for your clients. I know financial advisors that are so pure, so fair, and would do anything, and are very effective, and if they can't get the word out, they can't get new client. They can't do it because they hired somebody, it cost them a bunch of dough, and it didn't work, and now three months down the line, they're saying, "Marketing doesn't work," or, "Oh, I'm too busy, the market went down. I got to go now focus on redoing my market with sufficient frontier graph in my PowerPoint presentation." That's how it goes. That's where the disconnect is, right there.

When Marketing Professionals Sometimes Fail Advisors [19:34]

Michael: So what's the difference or distinction of why advisors who go try marketing or even outright are hiring marketing consultants, right, they spent the money on the marketing thing, and it didn't work? So where's the gap persisting that even if I say, "Okay, maybe I'm not great at this, I'm going to hire someone to help with marketing that so often advisors don't end up with good results?"

Sara: Because marketers are great marketers. You get into a meeting with the marketing person, and then they say, "Oh, I can see your marketing..." Because they can see it online. "Oh, well, you know what? You didn't include the right color scheme," or "You didn't do enough," or "You didn't wait long enough. Did your person tell you you were going to get SEO results after two months? That was wrong. You needed to pay more money and do more ads." And that's how they get taken.

Michael: So, how, as an advisor, do I figure out who to trust amongst the marketers? Now I'm having trust anxiety with the marketing of my marketers.

Sara: I'm going to tell you what a clear indication is that your marketing is effective.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: How many questions did you get in the last month on anything that you said or anything that you wrote or put out there relative to your business? Because questions are...it should be question generation instead of lead generation. If no one's asking questions, you're not going to get any leads from it. That's the way to tell if you're being effective. And if you're not getting questions, you have to do up or out.

I did this with my own email newsletter a few years ago. I was publishing and not getting any comments back, and not getting any leads. So I said to myself, "You know what? I got better things to do with my time. I'm going to do nothing with this newsletter if I can't improve it. I'm going to stop this newsletter if I can't improve it in 30 days. I'm going to give myself a month, but I'm going to make drastic changes."

And so what I did was instead of doing it once a month, I said, "I'm going to do it every day. And instead of it being all paragraphs and me going on and on, I'm going to do bullet points. And instead of having it be about something that I'm just envisioning people want to talk about or imagining, I'm going to actually use questions."

So I went to all my clients and prospects that I knew, and I said, "What's your number one question about marketing?" And someone said, "What's the difference between Google Search Console and Google Analytics?" Sorry to throw a technical term out there, everybody. Please forgive me, but it's just what comes to mind. So I did an FAQ style daily newsletter. It's three bullet points. And to this day, I still publish this "Sara's Daily." Okay, I'm going to call it "Sara's Daily." I'm going to do one every day, and I'm just going to bang, boom, zoom. Here's your three-bullet-point answer to a common question that real financial advisors would ask.

And within two weeks, I had closed a $600 sale. And then within a month, I had closed a much larger piece of business, and it has continued from there on, because I had the self-control to say, "This isn't working. I'm okay not doing this because I'm better off doing nothing than doing something that does not serve the people that I'm trying to reach."

Attracting Leads By Answering The Questions Ideal Prospects Are Asking [23:02]

Michael: And all of it came down to "I'm just going to find out what questions they're literally asking and start writing answers to their questions."

Sara: That they are literally asking, that's right. And financial advisors, you don't need a big, whole McKinsey consulting survey to do this. You don't need to go hire some big consultant. You could go to...people also ask on Google. You could type in, "What are the retirement questions that people in Warrenville, Illinois, have?" And just go down and see.

There's going to come up a bunch of blogs that other financial advisors wrote on that. Skip over those, but then scroll down to the bottom, where it says "People also ask." You see, we're operating in the information age, and Google actually will tell you because people say to things Google that they won't tell their spouse, right? Google knows everything about us. So you could look at the questions that people are asking.

If you also went on to Reddit, you don't have to participate. You could just spy. If you join the personal finance forum on Reddit, you could see there are very real, very insightful questions. Another great one is Bogleheads. Bogleheads are a little bit more technical, but the Bogleheads forums, you can see there are some very intelligent questions that people are asking on there.

I will tell you to stop playing into the stereotype financial advisors. Stop talking and creating content that only other financial advisors want to read. That's the number one indication. If you're getting more comments and likes from other financial advisors on your social media, you need to stop what you're doing and flip it to be about them, the real questions people ask, not about you, and where you can display your expertise and your knowledge base.

Michael: So if I'm starting to go to these places, what questions do retirees in, insert my town name, ask, and then I like scroll down to the Google section, what other questions are people asking, people also ask. I'm going to Reddit and looking at the personal finance subreddit, I'm going to Bogleheads. If I'm doing this and starting to see questions that are cropping up for which I've got some opinions or views as answers as a financial advisor. So what do I do now with that? What am I supposed to do?

Sara: You create the best possible answer that anybody's ever made for that question. I've seen people build entire businesses off of one blog post. This has to be mass-produced…that's a lie. That's a lie contrived so that marketing people can make more money off of you. And I myself, as a marketing consultant, if I create one blog post for you and you rank number one on Google, or you get into the AI agents where ChatGPT is recommending you every single time somebody asks, "What do I need to do to retire in Voorhees, New Jersey?" I'm good. I'll walk away. We could be friends.

I'd hope you'd still like myself on social media if I helped you achieve that. But I will kiss you goodbye if that's what you've achieved and you can achieve it. But see, here's the other thing, is there's not enough really development of good answers on that. So it has to be scannable because, in the digital world, you'd want the AI agents to be picking it up. But you also want to put all the related questions, all the different offshoots of that question. So it should be as specific as possible. How would I retire in Voorhees, New Jersey? I would get the Voorhees, New Jersey zip codes, and I would create the most in-depth, most engaging., I would use humor because humor plus intelligence plus relevance is just unbeatable. You'd be unstoppable if you could throw a few jokes in there. "Hey, don't read this blog if you're not a Bruce Springsteen fan." Okay, well, maybe that wasn't that funny, right? Or like, "Only if you're a Philadelphia Eagles fan..." If they say Iggles, I think, sorry, everybody in Philly, if I'm butchering your accent. I'm from Boston, so you can make fun of me next and like the comments to this podcast, but whatever, right?

Just to be like, "Oh, Eagles fans, you can't read this. Sorry, this is just for New Jersey residents." Just do stuff, show that you're a person, connect with them, speak to them, make an anecdote, and not just a client anecdote. Be like, "My family and I have lived in Voorhees, New Jersey, for 25 years." And speak real to people.

"And we've seen teachers retire and think that they were okay, only to find out that they really didn't understand the New Jersey teachers' retirement system. And that's why we're out here doing what we're doing, because we think there are a lot of you and New Jersey has a lot of very high-income, high-tax places that you can live, namely..." Zip codes, okay?

Now, not only have I created credibility, but I've created specific information that those AI agents love. Google loves specific information. Google doesn't love, "Here's how to retire with dignity and confidence so that you can be empowered if you're a New Jersey person." No, that doesn't fit any of... You're not fitting in the boxes, you see? Every relevant question anybody could ever have about that.

And the best part is you have your clients to ask. "Hey, I'm writing a blog about this. What are some questions that...? If you could just help me, please, what would be some questions that I could include?" And this is where you can use it as...you writing the blog itself becomes a marketing opportunity.

"I was just curious. I know that your kids live in Voorhees in the next town over. What would be the questions that your children who live in Voorhees tend to have?" "Oh, well, they were looking to re-up their mortgage, and they were having a hard time about that." "Really? Were they using a local bank in Voorhees, or were they using bigger bank like Bank of America?" Right? So now what am I doing here? I'm setting it up for that client to send the blog to their kid. So that's how you expand out and build content that serves a community, not just that serves anonymous, blank, unknown, unspecified, cold. We're getting into the cold realm. Let's warm it up by being real people, talking about the questions that real people ask, and creating the content in a real way that involves other people from the community that we have already built by creating our client base.

Michael: So then I've got to ask, so I feel like it's the fear that crops up for a lot of us when we're trying to cultivate this specialized knowledge to deliver to clients, so that we got expertise and they hire us and pay us. If I write the definitive blog post on teachers' retirement plans for teachers in Voorhees, and it's all out there on the internet, why does someone hire me? Because didn't I just literally give away the answer to the question that I was hoping they were going to hire me to answer?

Sara: I think that if that's what happens, then that's a question of a point at which there was too much emphasis on validation, that there was too much talking about the actual retirement process. I wouldn't go into, "Well, here's how to open an account and ACAT the money over, etc." I would describe... At some point, you have to plant a little bit of a seed of the questions that come up in the process of handling all of this. The questions that come up in the process of retiring are often best served in the hands of a professional. And I think that's where you got to plant those seeds at certain places as well.

Michael: So the point is not necessarily to write the article of every possible technical rule and nuance of the teachers' retirement plan in Voorhees, because that's me over-proving how much I know and I didn't actually need to prove that much. I just needed to say some things to demonstrate that I know how to solve this problem, I have competency here, and I know other questions that you, teacher in Voorhees, are probably also asking that I could help you with as well. Don't go further than I need to go in answering this.

Sara: It's always about the thought stream that you create in the other person. And it's never about just giving them the information because they already could get the information. They have info sessions with their HR people. Do you really think the Johnson & Johnson executive doesn't have all the information at their fingertips? They have it. What they need is a translator. So you're going to translate, but in the process of you translating, you're going to create... And I'm not saying this to try to be manipulative, I'm saying it because this is why you have a job. You're going to call attention to the questions that come up during that process that they may not have been considering.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: So, for example, one of the things is retiring, okay? Yes, Voorhees teachers, you need to get your account statements. You need to... This is what a financial plan would look like. You're going to describe what a financial plan would be, but then you're going to create questions. Most people have no idea what $2 million in a 403(b) plan actually translates into. Most people have never considered what is the solvency of the entity that is providing the pension to them?

These are the questions that you've got to create in their mind. So they're thinking, "I never thought of that. I've heard this before, but I have never heard that directly applied to me. I've heard of companies going out of business and not being able to pay their pension." You see what I'm saying? That it's the idea of acknowledging where the knowledge leaves a gap. And you should do that by creating those questions. And by the way, those questions are also great for search optimization and AI optimization.

Michael: So then how do I know what the right questions are to be going out there and answering? I feel like now on the other extreme, I got a lot of clients, if I go to all my clients and ask what all their questions are, now I have a lot of questions to answer. So, yay, I can stay busy making blog posts, but how do I know which ones are the right questions to be answering and trying to create marketing materials around? As you said, busy. If I can run a whole practice with one home run post, I'm like, "So how do I figure out what that one is?"

Sara: It's the question that has come to you more than three times in any week or any month. Three times in a row. If three people ask you a question, you should write something on it.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: I'll give you an example. I got this question twice over three weeks. How do I know what marketing is the correct way for me? So I'm doing a webinar on it.

Michael: Okay. Because that's literally the questions that are cropping up. If they're asking you and you're hearing it repeatedly, just write a webinar, or I guess whatever content modality you like. Make something to give them the answer. Okay. That feels very tangible. We all deal with certain volume of questions ongoing. Look for the things that repeat three times feels pretty tangible.

The Power Of Silence For Advisors When Meeting With Prospects [35:00]

Michael: So you had said earlier that some of these things are hard for us because we basically have to negate stuff that we've learned in the past. So help us understand more. Where are the gaps that I actually have to negate or unlearn because they're creating problems for me?

Sara: It's very problematic when financial advisors talk too much. So I just always say, "Quit yapping." The first thing you should do is...and it kills me when people get a lead, they get a good solid prospect in the door, and then they can't close them. Or they get into a prospecting situation where they get in a group or a community setting, or they get in an event, and they get in front of people who are wealthy, who are being underserved and overcharged and treated very badly, and they just never can get them to open the door because the conversation just never goes where it needs to go.

So the first thing I would just say is, in any interaction that you have interpersonally, what is your relationship like with silence? Silence. I know this word intimidates so many people. I would be better off saying it, and I won't do it, by the way, Michael, but I'd be better off saying a cuss word on your podcast than the words...do you know how scared people are of silence? They'd rather be insulted than have someone sit in silence with them. People don't honor silence, but the thing is that silence is what powerful people value the most.

If you know someone who's really successful, have you noticed that they're quiet at times that other people are not usually quiet? There's a reason for that, because you have to understand something, that every time you speak during the prospecting process, you give away your power, all right? Not when you ask a question, but when you answer one, okay? Now the person who talks invests more. Okay, so I'm going to say this differently. If you simply let other people talk and invest in you, marketing becomes easier because they're building trust in you by you allowing them to speak to you.

But this is not how marketing is taught. Marketing is taught you have to have an elevator pitch, you have to say all the right things. If you spent more time getting in front of affluent... I'm sorry to insult anybody who's not dealing with affluent people on here, but I think most of you are into the millionaire next door even type, the million-plus. I'm just assuming that for this podcast, please forgive me, okay?

Michael: Yeah. If we're not there, we usually wouldn't mind getting a few more clients who are there.

Sara: Right. If people don't have the savings, then a lot of times it is the high-income earners, the HENRYs, that are being targeted. It's generally not the people who are making $60,000 and have $200,000 of school debt, the college professor that you met at the Lions Club. You know what I'm saying? That's generally not the client for most of you. Okay. But if you spent more time getting yourself into situations in affluent communities and just getting people to say the right things, that actually could be your marketing.

But as you see, you have to train your mind for this. Sit in silence with your spouse for 30 seconds today. They're going to be freaked out. I'm going to tell you in advance what's going to happen, right? Just sit there. You'll be talking. Maybe after the kids go to bed or whatever, just sit there and look at them. Can either of you do...? Does anybody listening to this podcast think that you could actually sit in silence with your spouse and just look at the person for 30 seconds? Did you see? Because I did this with Antonio the other day.

Let me tell you what he did. He started laughing. He couldn't look at me. He couldn't look at me in silence for 30 seconds. And I was just looking at him and just be in silence with me. And I've been with this dude 14 years, 14 years with this man, 4 kids with this man. He's seen me cut up on the operating table twice, okay? This is what happens when you invoke silence.

So, financial advisors, I'm begging you to stop talking. I'm literally begging you, because only when we're comfortable with silence do we create a safe space where other people can truly express themselves. What I do is on my webinars, I stop talking every ten minutes, and I stare. And anyone who's seen me live...sorry, I don't mean to make it sound like I'm a flex, like I'm Tony Robbins or something that I fly over the world and present to everybody. Okay, but I'm not.

But I know many of you have seen me present on a webinar or in person, and I will stand there in silence, okay? And I would say there have only been one or two times when it was so awkward that somebody did not come forward with a question, okay? And why do I want questions? Because if somebody asks me a question on a webinar, if somebody asks me a question when I'm presenting, they've had the courage to come forth because people have social anxiety.

They've overcome the anxiety and the fear about, do I trust her? I've forced them in a way to come to me and to overcome that mental block of, "Is she trustworthy?" And I'm going to show them right then in their back, right when I'm in their face, I'm going to show them to their face, "Look me in the eyes. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to tell you the answer." And that is very powerful. That's where we're all missing it. Feels weird at first. You're not going to want to do it. Overcome the fear.

Michael: This reminds me, now that AI note-takers have arrived, and suddenly all these client meetings are being recorded. I think it was Jump had put out a report earlier this year, just coming over their zillion meetings in the software now. And I may get the numbers slightly off, but it was something to the effect of 85% of advisors said they listen more than they talk in meetings, they allow space for their clients to talk. And the actual data was 84% of advisors do the majority of talking in client meetings. Complete opposite. We didn't think we were talking that much in client meetings. And the actual empirical data is almost all of us talk the majority of the client meeting, not the client.

Sara: Because it's vulnerable. What if I sit there in silence and they don't say anything? They're paying me $10,000 a year. I need to show them. I need to show them I'm valuable. But what I'm saying is they're investing in you when they are talking to you, and you're listening.

So I'm going to give you some phrases. You see, but listening doesn't mean that you just sit there. It means you prompt them along gently. Here are some one-phrase sentences to use. No, one-word phrases to use, forgive me. Someone says something, they're talking and talking, let them talk. And then you just say, "Is that right?" Let them continue, right? "Oh, yeah, are you?" So, "Hey, we found out that I was the top-ranked police officer in the squad this year." "Oh, yeah, are you?"

Another example, "Hey, I'm saving 50% of my bonus this year. I got promoted." "Oh, you are? How's that going for you?" "We're planning a huge family trip to Hawaii." "Tell me more." The other thing is you could make a sound. Just say, "I'm here. I'm with you. I'm listening to you, but I'm not getting..." "Hmm." If I just go, "Hmm," right? And you don't let them just run away. You guide them gently, because you know a lot about money. And if they know that you know a lot about money, and if you're there in a prospect meeting, or even if you're there in a social situation, it's pretty likely they're going to say something about some kind of a life transition. And that would be the opportunity for you to steer the conversation into how they're managing all aspects of it.

"Oh, yeah, we decided to move." "Really? Where did you move to?" And they're talking and talking. "Oh, we had to...we like the...it has a bigger kitchen, and the place..." "Oh, really? And would that just... If I may humbly ask, does that come with higher property tax? How did that affect your property taxes? I'm just curious. And the reason is..." And here's how you can plant the little seed, okay? "I'm just curious about that, because I actually have a few clients that, could be wrong, but I think they live in that area. And I think Somerset Avenue, maybe, and they were just complaining to me that the property taxes were so high. Is that your experience?"

The Benefits Of Reducing "Friction" For Prospects And Clients [43:52]

Michael: So, where else do we have things we need to negate, fix, break old habits?

Sara: I would say that reducing workload and friction is another area. So, for example...what we have to understand is that people...again, I don't mean to offend anybody, but you are here listening to this for a reason, and I'm not being a good guest if I don't just tell you this, but no one wants to talk to a financial advisor. The very few...and I'm not saying it to offend. "Oh, they don't like me. My clients love me." Yes, they love you because they already know you, because you've already ingrained yourself into their lives. You've shown them that you're friendly, caring, all of that.

But the fact of the matter is that initially, most people don't want to talk to a financial advisor, and that's because of the bad reputation. And it's because also doing so unearths a lot of things that they might not want to think about, like death, like not having enough money, like what if the market goes down? And what if I've done myself in by having a very high-concentrated position? All of these things. It's a lot of shame and guilt, and all these things are going to come to the surface when I'm talking to you, right?

So, for example, I'm 48, and my doctor... I had my physical. My doctor was telling me I need to have a colonoscopy. I don't want to do this. I really don't, because I'm scared. I have 4 children, they're all under 12 years old, and I'm scared. What if they come up with something? And I guess I'll get it treated, but sometimes they come up with these things to monitor and watch. And that's actually what I'm most scared of. What if it's some minor thing that is just enough to get me worried and constantly having to go back, right?

Anyways, so any chance they give me to get out of it, I get to tell you I'm dodging, okay? So they had to call me three times. I finally answered them because I thought it was a doctor. It had the same first six digits of the phone number, so I thought they were calling about my kid. My kid at school, right? So I answered the phone.

Michael: Oh, they fooled you.

Sara: They tricked me into it, right? So I answer the phone, and they're like, "Ms. Grillo, this is the gastroenterologist's office." Okay, so anyways, look, any friction you present is going to nudge them out the door, okay? Okay, financial advisors? So listen to this, right? The difference between click here to download, okay? Which is download, download? I don't even know where these files go. Is this going to blow up my machine? Do you know how anxiety-inducing it is for me to have to download something?

Michael: Is it secure? What if it has a virus? Yeah, I can go lots of directions here.

Sara: All right. Or how long is this thing I have to read? Is this some big clunky PDF? I don't want to sit here and read on my PC. I don't like... My back hurts. I don't like reading. I don't like reading when I'm sitting in this chair, right? Versus, you've got a five-second retirement guide sent to your inbox. See, we got to remove the cognitive load for the reader as much as possible. The other things that a lot of you do, the long questionnaires to answer, right? Oh, okay, you're going to set up a meeting with me? Fill out this questionnaire. Raise your hand if you enjoy filling out questionnaires, right?

I don't even know you, is the other thing. I got all these invasive personal questions like, "How much do I make? Am I married? How much debt do I have? And I'm feeling stupid, first of all, with some of these things I'm having to talk about already." But why not a three-question survey?

So, for example, one thing nobody asks before a meeting. Do you require accommodations? Somebody is autistic. Somebody has a disability. Somebody can't do Zoom because it makes them nauseous, right? Whatever. Do you require accommodations? Why are you coming to me at this point as opposed to an earlier point or a later point? And what's the primary question you're looking to solve by meeting with me? Don't ask them about their employment history. Don't ask them, "Can you pay my...?"

I do, at some point, suggest signaling about how much your services cost, explicitly stating your fees on your website. And at some point in the process, you really should bring them in about what it actually costs to work with you. But I don't advocate for that before the meeting and the survey.

Michael: So this is a three-question survey I'm putting when they schedule, I'm doing this instead of any other prospect intake. Help me just set the context further.

Sara: They schedule it. Send them the three-question survey.

Michael: Okay. So this is a follow-up to scheduling.

Sara: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: And another point on scheduling is that...and this is especially true for all of you. And you know I love the flat fee folks. You know I love hourly. You know I love advice-only planners, okay? But if you're working on a one-time plan or you're having a series of meetings, you're doing a project with somebody, do not expect them to email you and set the meeting up after the meeting's over.

Or even in a prospecting situation, do not let...and I'm not trying to say lock anybody into anything, but don't let them leave the meeting without getting the next meeting set up, because then you got to track them down. They've got...in my case, I've got the school calling me about my kid didn't do her homework and got a 55. Okay, see? So there's so much distraction when you have them front and center. That's when to set up the next meeting. I am not saying force them into the meeting like a sales schmuck. I am saying propose the idea of meeting with them. And then if they squirm, you have them right there, and then just have an honest conversation.

This is what I say at the end of my meetings. How did you feel about today's meeting? See what they say. It's a plain question, right? Or I say...

Michael: Oh, it was great. We can't wait to go to the next step. I'm so glad you asked. Let's schedule that. Right? Just giving them the opportunity. Sometimes it goes that well.

Sara: Right. In which case, you just spared yourself having to go stalk them over email, which is a nuisance to them and a nuisance to you. And if they don't... So if I say, "Well, how did you feel about the meeting?" Right? And then they say that they squirm or they say this or that, I say, "So what's your vision for how this unfolds next? How do you see it unfolding next?" I'm making them feel like they're in control of it because, in a way, they are. I'm the guide, but without this information, I just really don't see how we can have a basis for anything constructive.

Why would you leave the meeting without knowing where you actually stand with the person? And trust me, I've gotten back some responses like...if I wasn't so thick-skinned, having been doing this for ten years. And by the way, I'm in New York, or I live in New York City, 26 years, right? So I got a little tough skin now, but I've heard some things back that hurt my feelings in a way, but I'm a big girl, I'm professional, but you got to be able to take that. It's only when you're able to look them in the eye and really say, "What is this? What are we doing here?"

And sometimes you're going to lose, but most of the time you're going to win. And moreover, you're going to save yourself the time and energy of chasing people that don't really care about you, or you're going to find out what you're doing wrong. And whenever I find out what I'm doing wrong, it's always so vastly different than what I thought.

Michael: I'm struck in that, again, I feel a lot of us struggle, particularly some of these moments in prospect meetings for the fear, you named it earlier, like, "I don't want to be too salesy. I don't want to be too pushy." But just I'm struck by the particular questions you're putting forth, right? How did you feel about today's meeting? All right. Got to be ready for some rejection, I guess, if they didn't love it. That doesn't feel pushy to me. That's just opening up, just like, "So how did you feel about the meeting?" And if they say they loved it, we'll go to the next steps. And if not, then not.

And following with questions like, "What's your vision for how this unfolds next?" As you said, I may be the guide, but they were in control. Maybe it's my own view. That feels remarkably not pushy and not salesy, but very clear to me about how that's going to move a sales process forward. What's your vision for how this unfolds next? "Oh, I don't know. I'm loving this. You tell me, what's the next step in the process?" I'm like, "Oh, I'm so glad you asked.Let's schedule the next meeting."

If I'm having a good meeting with a prospect, these feel like they're going to flow in a very natural, let's take the next step in the process outcomes, but I don't have to push it. I'm just giving them the opportunity to say, "Let's go to the next step. Let's go to the next stage. Let's keep moving forward."

Sara: Well, I just don't see how you can really want to invest any of your time unless you have clarity. The goal should be clarity. Because if you ask them to provide clarity to you, they're either going to affirm or reject out loud. Because also when you're brave like that, it shows people that you're not desperate. And that's what they want to see. They want to see that objectivity, that fairness, that logic. And you're thinking out loud with them.

Michael: And so the idea here is ultimately, these are all ways that we're trying to, I think you said earlier, reducing workload, reducing friction, right? For better or worse, let's get clear whether they're really interested or not. If they are, we'll guide them through appropriately to the next step. And if they're not, peace be with you. Let's just separate. So I don't have to spend a bunch of time chasing you for a follow-up meeting that you really didn't want over emails that you keep rejecting or ignoring, and spinning my wheels and wasting my time, right? I'm just trying to get to, is this a person I want to spend more time with, who wants to spend more time with me? If yes, yay, let's schedule next. And if not, let's make it easier to know that, so we can cut our time losses and move on.

Sara: Now, I'm going to say something crazy, Michael. And a lot of people on this podcast are going to totally just barf, okay, that I'm saying this. But if you find out that they're not a good fit for you, then why don't you just refer them to another financial advisor right then and there? Isn't that the right thing to do? And, oh, yeah, she's crazy, just ineffective. Okay, but at the end of the day, a rising tide lifts all ships.

And I know in my transparency community that a lot of the advice-only planners who just provide financial planning services, one of their largest lead sources is other financial advisors who are AUM advisors, and they can't serve people who don't have the million but are making bank, right? And so it is very reflective for me because I'm like, "What if everybody operated this way? What if you said to somebody at the end of the meeting, 'There's a lot of different financial advisors out there. And if I'm not the person, I'd love to help you just get this done by referring other good people that I know that could take very good care of you?' Are you thinking that I might be a good candidate for working together with you? Or if you'd like to speak with other people, I would just humbly ask, please let me be the one to put you in touch with some good ones, because I want the best for you." What would somebody say if you said that?

Michael: It's hard to be negative. For better or worse, you're making it really easy for them to say, "No, I don't want to work with you. Send me to someone else," just in a positive, gracious way if it's not working out. Because I do find there are even times where prospects are not interested and because they don't want or fear an awkward moment, they won't tell me they're not interested because they're lovely, nice people, pleasing people who don't like rejecting others either and they don't want to have the rejection conversation with me, which means they don't actually say they're not interested. I have to figure it out, or suss it out, or learn the hard way.

So, I love it. I like that conversation, how you framed it, because if they're really not interested, we're making it really easy for them to off-ramp out of this relationship or off-ramp out of not having a relationship as a prospect. And just at the end of the day, that's a lot easier than trying to do all the follow-ups and all the other things to find out they really weren't interested and just couldn't tell me to my face.

Sara: Sometimes, we are presumptuous that if someone's interested and they meet with us, that the meeting has to result in the outcome of them hiring us. But I've had so many good meetings where, although I didn't necessarily get the business, that person is a great social media follower. I earned their respect because of how I conducted myself. I showed them that I cared.

And sometimes it's these little breadcrumbs that the trail is made from, from these little tiny interactions we have after the meeting, after they've rejected me. I've had people say, "No. No, Sara, no." And then they're coming to my webinars. They're reading my newsletters. And either they refer somebody, that happens a lot, or I've had people turn around, and I see an order come through on my email for my book, or they book a consultation with me or something like that.

There are so many different ways that you can work with people, and there are so many different ways that people want to be worked with now. It's not necessarily, yes, let me ACAT over my assets and move them over to Pershing, and let's get started. It's "I, right now, might have a need for some information about when to take Social Security. Can you put together a plan for me?" It's maybe just, "I need to talk through some things with my spouse. Would you be open to doing some sessions with us so that we can get on the same page financially?"

There are all kinds of needs that people have. And that's because of the internet. That's because of the different ways that you can get your financial needs met. So if we're not mirroring that as a profession, if we're going to be dogmatic and insist that we get tethered this way and only one way, that's okay if you want to run your practice like that. But in my opinion, I think you're missing out on the incubation of a lot of clients who would work with you in the future if you just showed them that little bit of grace, if you just showed them that you could flex to them and that it really was about what they needed, not what you need.

Michael: So, what else? Are there other things we need to negate, unlearn, habits we need to break, or we cover the main things now? Too much talking, too much friction, too much chasing folks that aren't a good fit by not making it easy for them to off-ramp if they're not and move forward if they are interested.

Sara: I see a lot of people wasting a heck of a lot of money on podcasts, and YouTube videos, and long-form content. People get pitched all the time, you should start a podcast, and I think it speaks to, sorry again, the ego hit of, "Oh, yeah, well, I'm an expert. I'm 20 years in the business. I got some things to say about retirement and about Social Security. I'll do a retirement podcast." And, oh, yeah, it'll just cost you $3,000 a month, right?

And a lot of times when you're starting from nothing, you have no following. What people don't tell you is that you're looking at a year or longer before you really start to get meaningful traction there. One of the things you could do to accelerate the adoption of your long-form content is to make sure that you're not losing them in the first 30 seconds.

People get so offended when I say this, but again, you got to quit yapping. Get to the point because it's hard for people to hang on. And do you really want the person who has the time to fish around for the good stuff? Tell them what they're going to get out of the podcast. And the first line means everything. If you're not performing on social media, it's because the first line of your posting did not signal. It did not scroll stop.

Email newsletter, the most important aspect is the subject line. You could write your own content, do your own podcasts, etc., by yourself and not have to pay anybody, and just use ChatGPT or Claude or whoever to come up with snappy, engaging subject lines, first line of the social media posting. And I don't care if I'm talking myself out of a job. I have marketing skills, and I know how to talk to people. I could do the same thing in real estate. You know what I'm saying?

I have dreams about owning a farm in upstate, me and Antonio have been looking, and having sheep and stuff and producing tinctures. Don't worry about me here, everybody, right? But I'm going to probably talk myself out of a job that you could probably do it yourself. Now, I know a lot of you don't have the time to or have no interest in doing this. But the fact of the matter is, I think what we got to understand is that the real value in the marketing is in the bottom line of it. And that bottom line usually has to be the first line because don't expect them to hang on and go find it.

Michael: Anything else?

Sara: Build a community. I think it's really important to look at it that if you can get somehow some kind of a commonality, "Oh, she's telling me to niche down." I think that if you can create something that lives on its own, then that's really going to be the best thing in the long term for you. It's going to take more time, but it's going to be the best thing for you.

The other thing is, I'd love to see more positive energy. I know that we feel like we need to be serious and conduct ourselves in a way that conveys credibility. And I get that. But a lot of times, there's, first of all, not enough humor. I am so sick of seeing these social media postings about, "Well, we're hiring for a wealth management associate role." And then it's like, "Oh, I can't find any good talent." That's because you're boring. That's because no one wants to work with you because you're coming across like every other financial advisor. And if that's the case, they're just going to go for who offers them the most money.

I had this one client who made a posting of him holding a lizard. And the caption was, "Wouldn't you love to work for somebody who loves animals?" And it got so many hits on it. And people came out of the woodwork. This is what I'm saying, is people are so desperate to laugh because when you laugh, you exhale.

Or just using the positive opposite. Whenever I get mad at somebody or frustrated with somebody, I imagine them as a baby. See, because I love babies. I had four of them. I imagine them. And trust me, I've had some people, and this is no offense to anybody out there that may have worked with me, but I've had some real...okay?

So I look at them with chubby cheeks and all bundled up in baby clothes, and even crawling around or making little cooing sounds with their adult face, only in baby form. And it makes me laugh. It makes me feel positive. And so I know I'm not trying to be some motivational expert here, but the fact of the matter is, too, people have got to enjoy working with you. People have to feel like, "He or she lifts me up. They inspire me. I'm going to follow them, and they're going to lead."

And so if you're saying things like, "Oh, geez, I'm so sorry for the delay. Sorry, I just missed this until now." That's negative, right? Why not say, "Thanks so much for your patience," and then respond to them with high positive energy, enthusiasm, right? All of these things are at the core of what can create a connection with you and set you apart without having you have to be like, "Well, I'm different from other financial advisors because I'm an expert user of eMoney and we've used eMoney for the last 20 years. We have five people working for us. They're all CFPs. And by the way, they all passed on the first try," right? That doesn't... I don't connect with that. See?

Michael: Yeah.

Sara: Something that I can tell my deepest, darkest secrets to, like, "Hey, I had this boyfriend once, and he ripped off $10,000 of my money." And that's hard to admit for some people. So they got to feel like the person on the other side is going to be someone that they can spend time with. It's not all about the technicals and what it looks like on paper.

The Value Of Building Community As A Financial Advisor [1:05:23]

Michael: So I want to come back for a moment to your comment around building community. I guess, what does that mean as an advisor? What am I doing?

Sara: Yeah. Okay. So I would just start off by saying that you need....before I get to community, because I've built an awesome community. No credit to me. I meant I use the word awesome to convey the awesomeness of the people in the community, not me, okay? It has nothing to do with me. But first of all, I think a lot of people, especially if they are solopreneurs, they think that they have to go through business life alone or make all the decisions alone.

And to some extent, that's true. And I think a lot of people started out and sat down to have their own practice for that reason, that they don't want to take orders from anybody else. But it doesn't mean that you can't have a team you. I have a team Grillo, okay? I have five people that I'm close to that are not other marketing people, but they are people that do something related to me. One person owns a financial advisor network.

Other people are...another person is a technology vendor to financial advisors. So they understand my world, and we just click that we have kids that are around the same age. We're in the same stage of our practices where we're not earning a gazillion, $20 million a year, but we're also not in startup mode. And I could go to them. And if something happened with my business, I could be like, "Oh, man, I just lost a huge client." It would be that person outside of Antonio. It would be that person in my business life that I would talk to.

And I think a lot of people don't have that because if you had five inspiring people... I know this is what the business coaches talk about, but it is true. You should build that. And you could just so easily find those people. Who do you follow on social media that inspires you? The best thing really is if it's someone that has strengths in areas that you don't have strengths, because that can benefit you. And then also you would hope that the same would be true on reverse for them, but you need to be inspired by the energy.

I have a thing, I call it "call hour" every day. Now, by the way, it's never a full hour, but I send out ten messages a day on LinkedIn. By the way, the LinkedIn messages are free. And I just message people that I haven't talked to, or they posted something, and I liked it. And I just say something nice. I'm just like, "Hey, you know what? I haven't seen you. I haven't talked to you in years. And I see, wow, you got a promotion. That's awesome. Good for you." Or like, "Hey, I really liked your post. I'm glad that you're calling attention to the ways we could protect elders in the community from being victims of cyber theft," okay? Whatever.

And it's like this rejuvenates me. It's not really actually for them. It's for me. But by the way, when you spend the time to just send... It could be five messages a day. When you spend time to just give something nice to other people on a routine basis, the results of this are amazing. And I do it every day, not Sunday, because Sunday is my holy day. I do not work on Sundays, but six days a week, I do this. And it has generated not just nice energy back, but it has led to a great deal of business when I didn't go forth with the intention to develop this. But this is how you develop a community. It's these connections, a community that inspires you.

Michael: So all this isn't context. This isn't, "I'm building a community with my clients and prospects to get growth opportunities." This is, "I'm building a community for me of peers I can be involved with as an advisor."

Sara: But the objective should always be growth, Michael, because you want people who are themselves growing.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: Just because someone is your client and they don't necessarily have a business, that doesn't mean that they're not growing. What if they're doing personal development? What if they're really involved with their community, their Rotary Club, they're Rotarians? They have a million people on their postings that they're doing a food bank event, right? And they've got all these wonderful people on their postings. And what if you just said to them, "Would you mind if I connected with Betsy and Rajiv that I saw because I thought that they just seem to be having such a great time with you?"

And don't be like, "Oh, yeah, I'm going to connect with them. And then I'm going to ask them to come to my dinner seminar at Morton's Steakhouse. I just want to connect with them because I think they're positive people moving in a positive direction in life. And I like that. I want to encourage that in the world. It's how I am. And I think I might be able to learn from them. Possibly, they might find my postings here in the feed useful as well." It's about giving. What can we give to each other?

Building A Community Around Advisor Transparency [1:10:08]

Michael: So, as you reflect on all of this journey, what surprised you the most about building your own business, providing marketing services out to advisors?

Sara: The most successful I've ever been is when I took the focus away from myself. And I'm not saying...look, I am a sinful, sorrowful person. I'm a human being with all kinds of flaws. And I ask forgiveness for anybody listening to this that I may have offended or not operated this way. I have learned a few things over the ten years that I've been in business. So I'll just say that. And I'm not always like this because, whatever, I get tired, low energy, don't pay attention, get distracted on focusing on being this way.

But the moment that I decided to focus my energies on other people and what they were doing, in picking the people that were correct and were aligned with ideals of generosity, fairness, logic, if you align yourself with really fair people, success-minded people, it's going to come back to you. And it has come back to me because I've built an amazing transparency community.

Michael: So I'm just intrigued to hear more of this. What changed? What did you start doing differently when you say, "I tried to take the focus away from myself. I focus energies on other people." What did you actually do differently? What activities? What habits changed?

Sara: Well, so what happened was, a while ago, I did this podcast. I used to have a podcast. I did a podcast with Scott Salaske called "Direct Indexing Sucks." Sorry, I don't know if I could say that word on your podcast. But anyways, that was the real title.

Michael: I think we got the gist.

Sara: Anyways, Scott Salaske and I were just talking about the ways that it was unfair to the consumer. And Scott, for example, he's on my team Grillo, because he has just been so inspiring to me. And he is a fluffy advisor. And he really inspired me to think about the ways that practices are set up, and the ways that clients are charged, and the different products that they're put in. It really, to me, was, he's a great...I don't want to use the word fiduciary because that's such a loaded term, but it was really fiduciarily inspiring.

And I started to think about, "Well, what if everybody operated this way? What if we looked at what the services and products are really doing for the clients at the end of the day, instead of focusing on scalability, profitability?"

And I found that when we published that podcast, I don't want to use the word viral, but it got a lot of attention from other advisors, many of whom embraced those ideals. Reporters were contacting us. And it created such a splash that it created this little social media community, where all of a sudden, we're all posting about, "Oh, what is the fairest way to work with clients?" And this and that.

And what happened was it became a movement. It became a consortium for discussing ways that practices could be changed to be more amenable to the needs of the clients. And it was entirely outside of me because I am not a financial advisor. I used to be, by the way. No one really knows this about me, but I used to be way back in the day. But the discussions were amazing, and they were gathering more and more traction. And I was just starting them and stepping away or guiding the discussions. I was thinking of good ideas to post onto my social media, and people were meeting through my social media postings, and they were commenting to each other. And it was amazing. It was like a beautiful flower blooming.

So then I say, "Okay, why don't we just all have a webinar?" And then 50 people show up for the webinar. I'm not selling anything. I'm not doing anything to harness any business over this. But then people are actually coming to me, and they're saying, "You know what, by the way, thanks for hosting the webinar. I am on your newsletter. And I noticed that you help with websites. Could you help me so I can express myself in a way that's clearer to people?" Because that's what we're talking about in this movement.

And it created these amazing examples that were so inspiring to where the more that we came together, the more that we would feed off of each other's ideas. And this itself is such a thing of beauty that I merely just started these conversations on social media and got out of the way for no money. It didn't cost me anything, but I would step in selectively. People would say, "Oh, I..." That, "Yeah, and I wish I just had so much more time. I could help all of the..."

When I was in college, I didn't really have any guidance, and I... I wish I had had social media or a good mentor, but I didn't. And so, for example, I step in when I see a younger person, and they're saying, "Oh, I'm going to go work at so-and-so insurance company in the training program." And I would say, "Would you like coming to our next webinar? Because there's a lot of advisors that might be looking to hire somebody right out of college, or you could at least be inspired and learn something. I'd really like you to come. It will not cost you any money. And maybe I can even get you a mentor. How's that?"

The fulfillment of that kind of a thing. And just seeing them so fresh-faced and vulnerable for me to have...and please, I don't take this on myself. I attribute it only to my colleagues and the goodness that they have brought to the community. And then that generates goodwill. And the goodwill, it really doesn't take long before people realize who the people are who are actively being a force for good in some way. That's the best word of mouth you could possibly have happen.

Michael: And so it sounds like from what you're describing, it wasn't conscious to go this direction of, "I want to put more of my energies towards others. I'm going to build a community." This happened organically. And as it worked and grew it, pulled you that direction? Is that a...

Sara: Well, my heart's leading me in that direction, Michael.

Michael: Okay.

Sara: They're in my heart. These people, the things that they do. First, I love God, but I love my country. I love my family. And these people have inspired me to realize what my life could be used to do for all of the above. Then I have people saying things like Kevin Estes, advice-only planner. "I actually want people to pay me less and less over time after the initial engagement, which tends to be the highest amount of hours, because that's the way I feel I'm fulfilling my role as a fiduciary the most." Who says that? Nobody says things like that.

Or Andy Panko, the lawyer said to write a negative consent clause in the agreement. "And I didn't want to do that because I want people to know that fees might be able to be increased at some point. I want to be in their face." Who says things like this? Right? Another person, "We got this percentage margin, and we felt it was too high. We didn't feel it was really fair to our clients for us to take that much of a margin." Who says that? Right?

Or other clients. "I don't want to raise fees on existing clients just for the sake of it when I'm not delivering anything different," whereas in the industry, most of the time, the conversation is about, "How do I raise fees without doing anything different and then explain it and make people agree to it?"

Or Joe Shore, another person that came to my Immersion event. People need different things at this time. At different times, it can be hard to turn your client over to another advisor, for example, if the client's going through a divorce, but sometimes that might be the right thing. And this is a great quote. He said, "Instead of asking, 'What type of client is this?' I started asking, 'What is the job they need me to do right now?'"

These are inspiring people. This is where my heart is because I love my country and I know that if we just had more trust as a profession, if people heard these words more or things like this or just saw great examples of fiduciary behaviors, that if the experience that people had was this, the people who need help would have a far less hard time of getting it, and there would be a vastly shortened sales cycle because of it, that the rising tide could lift all ships.

And maybe I'm a cold-heart businesswoman, I guess, if you see me on social media, a lot of people remark that, but at the end of the day, I really do love families, and I love my own family. I feel blessed. I feel blessed to have the people around me that I do. And I think a lot of people identify with that, too. You don't go out there to be a financial advisor a lot of times just for the money. I think it is a big factor, but a lot of times, I've seen such heart in so many financial advisors. And this is what I'm saying is that, why don't you build a nice little group and just let your heart show?

And it doesn't mean being vulnerable. It doesn't mean you do business for free or this or that. But I've said to you the quotes, the things people are saying that they're inspiring in each other, that at the end of the day, I think we're all in the business of making people do better in their lives.

Michael: So for folks who are listening…

The Low Point On Sara's Journey [1:19:48]

Michael: So what was the low point for you on this journey of building the business?

Sara: Well, way back in the day, I, at one point, had my own RIA firm, which I was actually horrible. I didn't really know what I was doing. It was a long, long time, maybe 15 years ago, before I had kids or met Antonio or anything. And I actually used to be...after I got laid off from Lehman, I was capsized. And people started coming to me asking me to do stuff, like manage their 401(k) and stuff. And I actually was a financial advisor, I had a state-registered RIA firm.

And then that didn't work out. And actually, at one point, after I had had kids, wanted to get back in the business, and I saw this job advertisement for wealth management associate or something like that. And so I go to the interview, and I find out that it's actually an insurance agent job.

But yet, I still thought that they were cool. You know what I'm saying? I still was like... Because they have their ways of presenting it of like, "Oh, this is the most noble profession ever. And you could affect families, and you could have hundreds of clients and get a holiday card from everybody every year, and everyone's going to love you." And I really went for it. And I had a baby at that point. My baby was nine months old. Now I have four children. By the way, Antonio and I had four children in five years. Okay, so there was one after another, almost like a conveyor belt. Thanks be to Holy God, these blessings came to us.

But what happened was that I had a baby, nine months old, and I think I was already pregnant with another one at that point, or I just found out I was pregnant. By the way, I had just found out I was pregnant. And I had this job interview. And I had a concern. I said, "Well, I'm pregnant, and I have a baby already. And how am I going to survive financially?" And they said, "Well, after the training, we're going to give you a salary that we'll customize to meet your needs. We'll take care of you, Sara." Famous last words, so gullible was I, and I went forward with it.

And again, please, I'm not trying to flex here, but just because I did have a good network, and I like talking to people. And so I was doing okay. And I made it past the initial training. They didn't lay me off. And the salary I find out is just almost like nothing. I don't even remember what it was, but I was going deficit spending into my savings. And daycare, by the way, 90 bucks a day. And I had this other baby. I had the baby. And it was the low point of my career, because I couldn't take a maternity leave.

And I started to have panic attacks. Now I have two children. I have to go out and hustle and sell insurance. I can't take maternity leave. I'm sleep deprived. I'm having migraines. I remember there was one night I just couldn't even... I literally lay there awake all night. And I was like, "I don't... I'm a loser. I'm such a loser. I have these kids, and I can't make this business work." And they were saying...they had these free marketing training sessions. But if you wanted to get additional coaching, it was $250 an hour. And at that point, this was so long ago, $250 an hour is still a lot, but it's not palatable for someone that's just starting out in the business.

And Antonio was like, "Babe, just quit. You're going to have a nervous..." I was lying awake there the whole night. He's like, "Sara," he's like, "You didn't go to sleep last night. And we have a baby." He's like, "Just quit. I'll support you." And he was working his butt off and wasn't killing it either financially. So here we are. And I think that was the low point of my career because I felt taken advantage of. And I just say to anybody, just don't do that if you're a recruiter. Just don't ruin...because it ruined my first...it ruined my kids... The birth of the baby. It ruined it because I just had to work.

I remember I had to go into the office, and I was nursing. I had to bring the baby with me to go into the office to fill out insurance applications. Recruiters, don't do this. Don't do this to anybody. If you need help about how to find good people, and I'm not trying to marketing pitch myself here. I have free resources. I'll give you blogs for free. You could come to my webinars. It's 50 bucks if you can't afford it. Or you could come for free if you promise me you're not going to scam anybody like this, because I feel like I got scammed.

And I felt so bad about myself. I felt like a failure. And I just had to, after that point, go on my own. I started making YouTube videos. And then people started contacting me, like, "Hey, you're a CFA, and you sound pretty smart about this stuff. Can you do my web..." And it wasn't even about marketing stuff. I was just talking about being a CFA charter holder and how I passed the tests. I was given college students advice about how to pass the CFA exam, and a bunch of people contacted me, and they were like...

One of the videos got 70,000 views on it. Again, I think it was just maybe my call to God that I said, "Point me in the direction. I have these skills, Lord, please use them for somebody's good." And so I made these videos, and people started coming to me and being like, "Can you do this website for me?" And I was like, "Heck, hey, yeah, sure." It beats having no money. I think the first month I was in business, I made 40 bucks a month. But I was like, "That's so much money. I can buy groceries. Woo-hoo."

Sara's Advice For Her Younger Self And For Newer Advisors [1:25:06]

Michael: So what else do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you ten years ago, as you were starting to build the marketing business?

Sara: Ask better questions and stop talking. I had so many opportunities. I was in with such successful people. And I just messed it up because I was competitive, or I was focusing on my own goals. But if I had just had the opportunity... I worked at Lehman Brothers. I worked at JPMorgan. I worked at Merrill Lynch. I did my CFA program. I went to Harvard. I went to NYU. How many of those people are actively involved in my business right now?

Failure. That was such a failure. What was I doing? I was so focused on my own self. I should have asked them. I should have gotten peers. I should have been like, "Hey, you know what? All of us are here at NYU. We should meet every three months and just help each other with where we are in our career." Never did that. And I think part of it was ego.

Again, I got to admit, I'm a sinful person, and I try to eliminate my pride and have humility. But back then, I think that wasn't the case. Because when you go to somewhere like Harvard, you go to NYU, you get your CFA, what do they tell you? You're the best. These are the top designations. And I feel like...and again, this is nothing against my parents, or anybody that encouraged me, or anybody that was there in my process, but that I wish that I had just had a little bit more humility to realize that my success wasn't going to be about how smart I was or how hard I worked. It was going to be more about what I did for other people in the world around me. And I blew it for years.

Michael: So what advice would you give younger, newer advisors coming into the profession today and trying to find their path?

Sara: Find the hardest problem that no one's solved yet. Even if you don't solve it, the fact that you're on that mission, that you're journeying towards that, that you're...and be transparent about it. Be posting on social media as you try to solve the problem. Get everybody involved. Get their opinions. Get their feedback. Get them on blogs. Be looking at their stance of it. The fact that you're exposing new dimensions will astound people.

Well, typically, when people are saving for college, they use a 529 account, but here's where I think...right? Or the biggest problem, even with all the financial advisors in the world, why are people still unable to retire in our country? Why can't more than half the country not retire, right? This is a far bigger problem because if we could solve that problem, we could solve a lot of sales problems. It'd be a heck of a lot easier to sell services, I would imagine.

What Success Means To Sara [1:28:05]

Michael: Yeah. So, as we wrap up, this is a podcast about success. And just one of the themes that comes up is that that word success can mean very different things to different people. And so you're on this wonderful path of building a successful marketing business now, building with the Transparent Advisor Movement. And so business career-wise seems to be in a wonderful place. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

Sara: Well, I love God, I love my country, and I love my family. And what success means to me is being a vessel for the goodness of God. And if I haven't done that, then I've failed God.

Michael: So, how does that show up in your life, in your working world now?

Sara: I want to bring purity, humility, fairness, logic to the field of financial advice, so that it causes a meaningful increase in trust. And that it creates a different financial condition for the American people, if that be the will of Holy God for me.

Michael: Amen. Amen. Thank you, Sara, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.