Managing $240M As A 3-Person Team Through A Structured Meeting Approach: #FASuccess Ep 502 With Wendy Ciehanski

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Resources Featured In This Episode:

• Wendy Ciehanski: LinkedIn
• Sample Quarterly Review Template – Download (PPT)
• Composition Wealth
• Diamond Consultants

Full Transcript:

Michael: Welcome, Wendy Ciehanski, to the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Wendy: Thank you for having me.

Michael: I'm really excited to get to chat with you today and to dig into what it takes to make ongoing client review meetings just really good and really efficient. Because I find there's a lot of discussion these days about how do we better systematize and scale financial planning as firms grow. And most of that discussion usually focuses on improve the data gathering process, cut down how much time it takes to get into the planning software, make the plan building process more expedited, and just all the things we do in those two, three, four meetings that we typically have to onboard new clients.

But the reality for most established firms is that while new clients require more work than existing clients, we have a lot more existing clients than new clients. And most of us add a half a dozen or a dozen new clients, but might have 50 or 100 or 150 we already serve. So, the bulk of the meetings for the year are not part of the new meeting process. They're part of the existing client review meeting process.

And there's very little discussion out there about how do you make 200-plus client review meetings more efficient every year? And I know, Wendy, you have done a lot of work on this in your practice of how do we create more structure in the ongoing review meetings and agendas that we bring in to make sure we're focused on what we cover in each meeting.

And so I'm excited to talk about what you have done to get more efficient in all of the ongoing meetings it takes to serve clients well and what you've learned in the... I'm assuming there are some ups and downs and bumps in the growth path along the way.

Creating A Structured Review Meeting Cadence To Serve Existing Clients [04:22]

Wendy: Sure. The review process is what we live our day-to-day lives on because it makes it consistent, a known entity for us. And it's a process that we've been doing 25-plus years. We did it early on and refined it along the way, and has continued to be successful for us. Not only for us, but for the clients, because our existing clients know the routine and the cadence and what to expect from us along the way for continued follow-up and portfolio reviews.

And it really all came around from the thought of service, fees, and performance. And out of those three things, service was the thing we could control. Fees can adjust, performance can adjust, but our service level and what we expected from a service level to our clients and what they expected from us, that's how our process evolved over time.

But what we do on a quarterly, semi-annual, annual basis is we have meetings with our clients that get determined, one, on the client's needs and/or wants of how often they want to talk to us or meet with us. Some clients have more activity going on, more things that need deep dives, and so they fall under the quarterly, semi-annual, or annual.

We have a template, and it's a one-page agenda. The front is the agenda, the back of the page is detail, making notes about mortgages, retirement, and a note-taking space. And we prep that the last week of each quarter, and it generally takes us about 30 to 45 minutes to prep that. We then send out a blast email to all the clients at the end of the quarter or the first or second day of the business day of that quarter.

Clients either call in to schedule or email to schedule their date to come in, and everybody...we have a thing in our practice that if the phone rings, somebody answers it. It's ideally not going to voicemail. So, if we answer the call, everybody can schedule for everybody if needed. So, that helps with the client.

So, the clients call in, we get them scheduled. We do most of the reviews the first six weeks of the quarter. There's always some stragglers that we may have to track down and work between their travel schedule or something that might be going on.

During the week, Monday of the week is our review, weekend admin, prepping for the meetings of the week, adjusting specifically on our review template for the meetings. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays are our client meetings. And Friday, we try to block off as a cleanup for the week, and look forward to the next week. And then after the quarter, it's a rinse and repeat, and we do that the next quarter.

What Wendy's Practice Looks Like Today [08:02]

Michael: Very cool. So, I have lots of questions to get further about some pieces of that. But just to take a moment, Wendy, can you give us some context on the firm overall as it exists for you? So, clients, AUM, team size, revenue, just so we have some context about how this comes together and who's there to support you on this.

Wendy: Okay. From a team standpoint, we are a small, very efficient ensemble practice. There's three of us, myself, Chris, my partner, who's also my husband, and then Christina, our CSA [Client Service Associate]. So, it is just the three of us. The business details, assets under management, about $240 million. We have 156 clients, and 99 of those are multi-generational households, which is very interesting. And that's driven a lot of our go-forward stuff with the practice of being multi-generational. And then from an annualizing revenue, we're about 1.5 [million dollars] now.

Michael: Okay. Okay. So, practice metrics sound really healthy overall. Make me do math, 156 clients, $1.5 million of revenues. The average client can be about $10,000 of revenue. I know we just have some bigger and some smaller distributed around that. But that gives good context for the firm overall. And so are you and Chris both advisors? You split serving this 156 client base?

Wendy: We both do act as the advisor, are split with that. And one of the things we've had fun with over the years is with new clients, the client gets all of us at all times, if needed, but one advisor is the lead person. And when we have the opportunity, we joke and let the client pick which advisor they want to be the lead, which is...

Michael: I imagine maybe awkward for the client. Sometimes awkward for you and Chris. And you're like, "I thought I was going to get that one."

Wendy: Exactly. Exactly. So, depending on the client and the situation, we do have a little bit of fun with that. But they know that they get both of us when and if needed.

Michael: So, can you walk through briefly, though? How do you actually present that choice to the client? What do you say or explain to them as you're setting up this choice for them?

Wendy: Sure. Typically, if it is a new client coming in and has been referred by an existing client. So, if it's somebody that I'm working with, the initial thought would be I would be the lead on that. However, as we learn more about the client and their needs and what needs to be accomplished, it may be that Chris is the better person, being the CPA, the data person, the numbers person, not only in his mind and his knowledge, but how he presents information. So, we look at that. Again, me being a communication major, some people respond more to "Let me show you pictures, and charts, and graphs." So, a lot of it then becomes just a personal communication style.

In addition, again, if the client needs a CPA or some tax knowledge background or it's insurance with annuities or something…I'm focusing on annuities and 529s, but Chris is the lead on a client, but they have a need for that, I'll jump in for that piece.

Michael: Okay. But when you give clients the choice, are you framing to them like, "Chris is the numbers person, I'm the communication major. Choose your own advisor." Do you set up with them that way? Are you both in the meeting, and you just each come with your respective styles and see what clients bond to? How do you actually just put that forth for clients to make their decision?

Wendy: Over the years, we've had a little bit of both, where we've met with the prospect at the time, and it was both of us. And sometimes you can just get a sense of that. But if it's not, if I'm meeting with someone, we describe the team, we describe the areas of what people cover more, or the details.

For example, when it gets into tax stuff, I'm going to defer to Chris, but that might be a hit or a miss thing when the client needs tax information. So, it makes more sense. But we will say, "You get both of us, but if you don't want me to be the lead at any time, that's okay. Chris is here, or Christina can jump in to help with that." So, it is a little bit fluid, and it just seems to fall into place.

Michael: And so from a, I guess, capacity end, are you at capacity? Is Chris at capacity? Are both of you there? Do you still feel like you've got space with 156 clients between the 2 of you?

Wendy: We do have space now. We did, in 2020, shut the practice down in the sense of not taking on new clients. The pandemic had started. Our assistant was working remote at the time, or started working remote. And we had shut it down in 2004…we had brought on...in 2022, we ended up bringing a new CSA on board with us that freed up a lot of our time, and we were able to open the doors back up for referrals and new clients. In addition, the decision we made to merge with another company took a lot of that admin off of our plate, that allowed us to go back to working with clients, which is where we really provide value.

Michael: So, the new assistant came 2022, and then when did the new affiliating to a larger firm transition come?

Wendy: July 2025.

Using A Standardized, Four-Quadrant Meeting Agenda To Ensure Key Topics Are Covered [14:59]

Michael: Okay. So, that's more recent. Okay. So, now this helps to understand team structure and environment overall. So, now let me go back to how you described the ongoing meeting process. So, I understand the weekly cadence, Monday review, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday meetings, Friday is clean up and retrospective, and get ready for next week. How many meetings do you typically take each day on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday? How meeting warrior are you during the meeting activity?

Wendy: There are some days that it's a three or four-meeting day. That gets a little bit heavy. It also depends if they're coming into the office, if we're doing a Zoom call, if it's a phone call. And it does change. Chris' client base has more quarterly meetings than I do. So, he tends to have more, and then we'll batch those up. And Christina's pretty good at spacing those out so that they're manageable and you're not having a day that you're just slammed.

Michael: Okay. So, she tries to be cognizant to not have a six-bagger one day and a two the next, and roller coaster up and down. So, a three to four meeting day, that's a full day for you.

Wendy: Correct. Because Christina will schedule the meetings for two hours. They may be shorter. So, if you do that, it's six hours with a couple of breaks in between.

Michael: Yeah. And do you typically fill all two hours, or you just put two-hour blocks because it takes you one and you need breathing room?

Wendy: Typically, it's just doing the two-hour block. Usually, they last a little bit less than that in time. And if it does last longer, a lot of it is just social catch-up with the client. It's stories about the family, and travel, and things going on, more so than diving into performance and numbers.

Michael: So, what I was going to ask is what do you cover over the span of two hours in a review meeting ongoing with clients?

Wendy: So, on our... I'd come in, and we have our one-page agenda review sheet that again, we've been using for 20-plus years, the same format, same style. And we have it a left hand and a right hand of the agenda. And then a invisible line that goes through the middle. So, it's four quadrants in our mind. And we always start with life and family updates, wanting to know how the clients are, the children, grandkids, what have you. And then we always ask them what is on their list to cover that day. What's top of mind for them? That way we don't forget. They know if there's anything that they wanted to make sure they covered with that. So, go through if they're still working. Job, again, life, retirement, just the big picture. Then the next question typically being what are our cash needs? What expenses are coming up? What do we need? Because typically, those are the things that are on the client's mind first and foremost.

Michael: Right, yeah. All the good stuff. Like, "We found out the roof needs to be replaced and we need to do some cash in the next couple weeks here."

Wendy: Exactly. And then we go down, we jump into asset allocation and performance. So, we will give them the overview of that. And we talk about potential changes to the portfolio. If we need to change allocation, if there's outside assets that we need to review to make sure things are balanced and still on line. So, we will go over that. So, that's the left side of the agenda.

The right side of the agenda are, we title it "Looking Forward and Next Steps." And that for us covers big picture things going on in the world, the political world, the economic world, tailwinds, what's going on with data, things that people might be hearing in the news and the media. Because I always say, "I heard this. How does it affect us?" So, we'll have those big picture…we talk about mortgage rates, inflation, those types of things. And then that's that on the right side, the top quadrant.

And then the bottom quadrant is our next steps and to-dos. And what falls in that area is two things. One is maintenance admin-type items. Should we update power of attorneys? Are our beneficiaries still how we want them to be? Trusted contact information. If we needed any documents signed or updated, falls into that. And then we typically have something that's an educational topic. And that might be they've made a change with tax code, or, a big one, and one that's come up with us more is cybersecurity and fraud. Having a conversation about the client's passwords, and where do you keep them? And do you update them? And things to look out for in that.

We always ask them, at the end, where are you traveling? What trips do you have come up? And that's twofold is, one, we want to hear about the great experiences that they're going to have and things they're going to do. But in many cases, it will take us right back to the top left of the agenda about cash needs because they go, "Oh, we forgot to tell you we're traveling and we need money for the down payment of this trip." So, it goes full circle. So, it starts with cash and ends with cash.

Michael: So, just as you're talking about this, I'm trying to visualize, is there a copy of this you'd be willing to share? Is there a template that we could share out for listeners if they want to look and try to see, literally, what does this look like?

Wendy: Absolutely.

Michael: Oh, awesome. All right. Thank you. So,for folks who are listening, this is Episode 502. So, if you go to kitces.com/502 and scroll down to the Show Notes section, we'll have a link out to the review template there if you want to just take a look and follow along, or scroll back, take the audio back a couple of minutes, and walk next to you as well.

So, Wendy, you said there's a prep process for this at the beginning of the quarter, before you queue them up. So,I guess I'm trying to visualize this. Is this review template specific to the clients, like each client has a version where you're highlighting all the things you're talking about for them? Or is this a firm level, we set what it's going to be for the quarter, and then we're going to do that agenda with each client?

Wendy: No, there is a little bit of personalization that goes on. We create the template. Yeah, I commented that usually the template, we can do in 30 to 45 minutes. One of the things that seems to take us the longest is we always put in the top left corner, for example, second quarter or third quarter review 2026, and underneath we put a quote. And the quote that we pick is very random. It's subjective. It's not focused on anything. So, maybe sometimes it's focused around baseball, if it's the World Series or something. It might be...which we spend time doing that quarterly to try to find the right quote that we think clients don't even ask us about it. But we have done it and kept it on there for years.

Michael: People are just there, maybe taking the witty quote for granted, but they're still going to grumble if it's gone.

Wendy: Right, right. So, we create the template. We have the main talking points, and then we will go in and personalize it, like on Monday, for when we're creating the reports for the review. If it's mine, I'm putting, "Do we need to talk about...?" If I know something went on with their work, do we need to be talking about their 401(k) or an IRA rollover, or something that I may know is a task we need to do. On the other side, Christina will look to say, "We need beneficiary updates," or "I need this document signed." So, she'll add things that she's looking for or might need from the client at that time. So, they all do get touched personally before the review. But the bones of it is standard.

Michael: I guess I just want to make sure I understand when you talk about it's 30 minutes to prep for the template. Is that for each client? So, you've got 30 minutes of 8 different meetings, 4 hours worth of template prep for this week, and then you go through next week?

Wendy: No, the 30 to 45 minutes is at the beginning of the quarter, creating the template, the base template for the quarter.

Michael: Okay, because that covers things like what economic things are we talking about right now? "Let's talk about gas prices and mortgage rates because that's the thing." Hey, we need to know when that's allocation performance, and we're going to have to talk about this investment that's up a lot, and they're all going to want to buy more, and we're going to have to explain why we're not buying more and diversification and all that good stuff." So, it's templating at that level.

Wendy: Correct.

Michael: But you do it each quarter. So, you have a common set of conversations that get repeated through the quarter as each client goes through the meeting cycle because you made a standard template for it. That's part of the repeatability of the meeting, the systemizing of the meeting.

Wendy: Correct. And one of the other things, when we're personalizing that agenda for that client, there might be something that was on the agenda, the quarterly agenda, that we made as the template, and it may not pertain to my client specifically at that meeting, but I may choose to leave it on so they visually see it. But I may say, "This is not applicable to us right now," but it puts it in their head. If we're talking about donor-advised funds, I might leave that on the agenda. They may not have it. They may have said no about it or "That's something I'll think about down the road," and we put it on just to keep it in the forefront or in their mind.

Michael: And so at the beginning of the quarter, you set the quarterly template for the firm. Then I guess on Mondays, you and/or Christina are doing your client-specific adjustments. "Oh, we know they went to Africa. We should put the update on the Africa trip thing on the list." "Oh, we know that they need to get their estate documents done. We'll keep that in the to-dos." That personalization, is that a Monday activity?

Wendy: Yes.

Michael: Okay.

Wendy: Or a weekend activity for Chris and I.

Michael: Such is life sometimes. So, then, as you go through these cycles, is this a review agenda you send to the client in advance, and they give their feedback or other input, or they just come in, and you start with "What's on your list?" and let them express it at the beginning of the meeting once they're there?

Wendy: So, that is a good question because there's one thing that we have found and I will circle back with that. If the client is coming into the office, we prep the agenda. There are other reports that we utilize during the review, and they see the agenda while they sit down in front of us. If we're doing a phone call or a Zoom call, we will forward the review packet to them. Ideally, it gets to them the day before. Some clients want it the day before and have requested it. Others are like, "Just send it, and I'll pull it up as we're going to jump on the phone," which would be the same as if they were in the office and it was just being set in front of them.

What is interesting, circling back to how the appointments get scheduled, we have considered and possibly will go to a Calendly-type scenario for setting client meetings. But one of the things we have found when the clients call in or email, they tend to give information about something that's on their mind, or they want to make sure they talk about ahead of time, and it gives us an opportunity to learn a little bit more. And they do that more often than not, and we find that very helpful. Where if we're going to a Calendly scenario, we might not get that information up front.

Michael: I feel like a lot of these technology elements are creating interesting divides in the industry between what's nice to automate because it takes time and what's an expression of good service or relationship building. "I'm not trying to save time on this part. I want to interact with the client and deepen the relationship." And it comes up in scheduling, comes up in meeting cadence. In fact, for some, now it's cropping up in education, even communication with clients. Now that AI [Artificial Intelligence] can write more newsletters for us, should we send our clients more newsletters, or do they actually appreciate more when we send them one-off emails that's actually from us? All those dimensions, I feel like there's just a collective industry debate forming of what's the line between efficiency and we're efficient seeing the way the actual trust relationship part that we wanted in the first place.

Wendy: Right.

Michael: So, you found it still feels like, dare I say, good old-fashioned client scheduling…calls and emails still gives you relationship interactions and touch points that make it feel worthwhile to keep doing it that way.

Wendy: Absolutely. That being said, we know that as I commented earlier about having different generations and our younger clients, that's not going to be the same, probably going forward, and/or their appreciation for that may be different, and they may appreciate it but say, "Hey, I don't want that or need it. It's just easier if I can go and click and do this in the middle of the night," or what have you.

So, we are aware of that and try to...and that was a big reason and behind the thought process of doing a merger, of how do we grow that out so that we can service all the clients. One, while we're here, still on this planet, and when Chris and I aren't on the planet, how are the younger ones served? And so we have a little bit of control and direction of how that took place.

Using The Back Of The Agenda Template To Capture Notes And Key Changes [31:55]

Michael: So, I want to come back to the merger decision in a few minutes, but I'm still curious for, I guess, the other half of this one-page template, as it were, which is the back. You said there's a back side of it where you capture notes and other items. So, can you talk a little bit more about what's on the back side of the quarterly review template?

Wendy: Yes, the back side is again our note hub. And we have that broken down to goals, which would include retirement, college, house or home, asset purchases, charity, estate. We have a risk profile line. Has their risk profile changed? KYC, Know Your Client information, asset allocation, and then changes for buying, selling, or holding specific investments or an attachment that would relate to any of the individual investment changes. You mentioned old-school. One might think this is old-school, and it probably is.

We have done some experimentation with Fathom and the recording of meetings that could help capture and completely make this part of our documentation easier and more efficient. Like I said, we have used Fathom, not sure that that is where we will be staying in that space, or maybe going to Jump. That's up in the air, in motion at this point.

The other thing is we scan this into a client file. So, the agenda is always stored and scanned. We even had conversations of can a scanning app or something pull that information out, and if it needs to get loaded into Salesforce. Again, technology, or I should preface, technology is not my forte. It all sounds good, but that would be really neat if you could scan it, and it pulls it, and then dumps it into Salesforce notes and things like that. And maybe there is that platform out there, and somebody will tell me something I'm not aware of at this point.

Michael: So, it sounds like the essence of what you're capturing here is the stuff that you tend to really want to document either because there's literally an action like a trade or there's something we really want to document for compliance purposes, right? Change in risk profile, change in other KYC info. Am I visualizing that well? It's not necessarily the "This is our note-taking sheet for broad financial planning conversations." This is the "We want to commemorate really specific things that create action or need compliance documentation.

Wendy: Correct.

Michael: Okay. And so what happens with this sheet at the end of the meeting? You go through a day of meetings, and then you drop two to four of these on Christina's desk at the end of the day. And so process through these?

Wendy: Yes. So, we'll go through after…so, I do this with the client meeting. I walk away, and I have my to-dos that I know I need to take care of. I process those. I will verbally...and this might not be right after the meeting. It'd be at the end of the day or possibly the next morning with Christina to let her know the immediate to-dos, if she has any. And either immediate or putting them on the calendar or the task list for a week out or a month out if things came out. And then, ultimately, these get scanned and put into a client file so that we have the document, and then try to get rid of paper going forward. So, it's all scanned into the computer.

Michael: What I find fascinating about this, you noted earlier some of the technology dynamics, and I'm sure there are some very techie advisors listening. They're like, "You could have this note-taker with this AI thing, do this thing, and plug it into Salesforce," because the technologists do cool technology things. And you're a 3-person team doing $1.5 million of revenue, which I find striking. It's like that is an incredibly high level of revenue productivity for a three-person team. That, for all the discussions of there were things that we do in our firms that are a little manual. Gee, I wish there was better technology for this.

I'm like, yes, and you're scheduling meetings with phone calls and emails, not Calendly. You're taking the notes directly. You're prepping the agendas one client at a time and sending out packets, and you're driving $1.5 million of revenue with a 3-person team. This is working quite well by any actual reckoning of business math. Just this maths incredibly well. It's a striking gap to me that I... I know I find there are things that sometimes we complain about in the advisor world because we just really don't like them. Some of us just don't like doing the notes thing, and any notes is really grating on us, and I wish technology would just magically make it disappear.

But there's a difference between the things that really aggravate me in my day, and I wish technology would make go away, and the things that would actually materially change our productivity. Because what strikes me about all this, you're doing this, and it's $1.5 million of revenue. And you said you still feel like you and Chris have capacity. You're not drowning and capped out here. You've got room and growth.

Wendy: Well, and now, like I said, with the merger, we're not doing compliance. We're not doing the billing. We're not, because back in 2022 and that down period, we realized we were spending half of our time on administrative-type things. And we were like, "We like the clients. That's what we're good at. That's where we add value." So, we recognize some of that. And again, not being technology-focused, and speaking for me personally, learning those new tools and making sure that they work correctly and accurately, I maybe can be more efficient just doing what I'm doing.

What's Changed Over 20 Years Of Using The Same Templated Approach [39:12]

Michael: Right. So, how has this changed and iterated for you? Because you said you've been doing some version of these quarterly review templates for 20-plus years. And so I'm... What did it look like 20 years ago? How has it changed? I got to imagine there are things you tried and went well, and stuck, and there are things you tried and did not go well, and you're like, "Well, going to take that back off. After all, that didn't work out." So, how has it evolved? What got added and subtracted over the years?

Wendy: I don't know if it's as much added and/or subtracted. I think it was the flow of which it went. And I think for me, early on, the thought was all clients want to know about is performance and investments, and that's what they're coming...that's what they want to do or talk about, and what they want to know. And while that is important for their goals and objectives, the actual investments are the by-product. That's how we get to do all these other things.

So, leading more with life and what's going on has been much more impactful. I know for us, and I think for the clients, because now over the years they've become family and friends. And of course, what's going on in the outside world changes all the time.

Michael: So, I'm going to infer then the early versions of the meeting template just literally had your performance review, here's our investment outlook. And the life, family updates, and such got added then, because you said you wanted to put more emphasis on those in the meetings?

Wendy: Right. I think the order of it, and in writing. It may have been the agenda was all the data information, but it didn't list current focus. And that first line says "Life and family update." Now they visually see that, and that's important. And that's the first thing that's on the list.

Michael: Okay. And, I guess, did you find over the years...did conversations change with clients? How did that show up as you started changing what's literally on the list and the first?

Wendy: A lot of it, I would say, because the clients are long-term, so that relationship just built over time. So, maybe it became more expected for existing clients. For new clients that come on board, they see that right away. And right away, I think it shows and establishes we need to know that part of what is going on in their world to be able to implement the investments, the allocation, what needs to be done, documents. Do we need to be talking about donor-advised funds, insurance, estate planning? Because what's going on in their life is driving everything where we can add value and help them.

Setting Different Review Meeting Cadences For Different Client Segments [42:43]

Michael: And then how do you set the meeting cadence? Because it sounds like you've got... I think you said there are clients who are quarterly, there are clients who are semi-annual, there are clients who are annual, and it sounds like that's not just a function of large portfolios with our A clients and get quarterly, and smaller portfolios, or C clients that get annually. It sounds like there's other factors. So, how do you actually set meeting cadence?

Wendy: We do a little bit of our own analysis and what we have going on, the work we need to do with the portfolio. So, if it's a new client coming on board, obviously, there's more work up front. If things need to be reestablished, things need to be moved around from different accounts or different investments, there's more activity and more meetings and/or conversation up front.

And then we settle in, and that settle in is a joint discussion. It's we think we can accomplish and do this quarterly or semi-annually, but we also say to the client, "How much do you want to talk to us? How much do you want to be spending time on this?" And like you said, it's not necessarily an asset thing because we have some that there's assets and they're like, "Really, only want to talk to you once a year." And even then, maybe I don't, and we're like, "No, mandatory. Once a year, we have to touch base."

And clients have moved from quarterly to semi-annually or maybe back. So, they can move from that cadence if they have a desire to, or we feel there is a need to. I would say more so, it has gone from quarterly to semi-annual, that it's gone downstream. Either they've retired, and they're like, "You know what? I don't want to look at this stuff as often anymore," or "I can go online now and look at it. And I understand what I'm looking at when I log into the portal. If I have questions in between, I'll call you." So, it's not a hard, set, steadfast of your asset level puts you in this review calendar.

Michael: So, then, do you have any adjustments for pricing to reflect this? I could have a "big" client that wants to meet only once a year and a smaller client that wants to meet four times a year. Do you try to make adjustments for that, or do you just assume this is going to average out over the practice?

Wendy: We, at this point, have assumed it will average out over the practice. So, typically, we do...fees are assets under management. We do or have done some hourly-type fees and a few annual retainer-type thing, but for the most part, we're assets under management. And know that sometimes we're paid just the right amount. Sometimes we're overpaid, and sometimes we're really underpaid, but it all works out timing-wise, if there's something going on in the client's life and there's a lot of activity, but then it slows down. So, there's instances or situations come up where we are working more and spending more time, and that's okay, but we're not adjusting the fees for that.

Michael: And what is the baseline fee? What does your fee schedule look like on an AUM world?

Wendy: Just about 1%.

Michael: Okay, okay. And tiers down as they get bigger, thing?

Wendy: Correct, correct.

Michael: And do you have minimums for the firm?

Wendy: We do not. Well, our documentation says we might when you look, but our thought is if we can add value...if we meet somebody and their asset level is lower, we will tell them that we might not be the right place for them based on the fees that we're charging. And if we're not adding significant value to that, but if it's someone that is ramping up and they know they want to do these things and they're really looking for help, we will work with that, again, if we're adding value to them. Otherwise, this might be a better scenario for you, and you come back to us when we're here, when it makes sense for our fees.

Deciding To Merge Into A Larger Firm [47:44]

Michael: So, now talk us through this whole change you went through a year ago with a merger, because it sounds like that was a fairly material turning point for the business. So, if you can, I would say paint the picture for us of what the business looked like, I guess, the months or year before you did this change, so we understand what was going on as you went and explored merger opportunities. And then talk about what happened from there.

Wendy: Okay. I had mentioned earlier in 2020, things shut down. Chris and I were working here in the office. We weren't taking new clients at the time, spending time on admin and all, and I'm like, "Okay, how is this all going to shake out?" And I think for most people, that period of time, people became very reflective, and what are we going to do going forward? So, in 2022, we brought Christina on, 2024, we opened back up, and said new clients can come on board because we felt that we were back with her help and expertise to add that back into the fold.

Michael: So, you went almost four years from 2020 to 2024, where you basically said, "We just can't take more clients right now?"

Wendy: Yes.

Michael: And what was client count, roughly? Were you similar now, or it just felt more drowning, or were you capped out even lower than where you are now?

Wendy: No, it was lower than we are now, maybe about 125, 130 households. And I think in that too, it was... I had commented in 2020, our assistant at the time was working remote, and then she ended up leaving, and Chris and I went a full year without an assistant.

So, that was a good part of, okay, capacity of onboarding new people, it became a lot. So, we were like, "Okay, let's focus on what we're doing now, let's start thinking about what life is going to look like going forward, not just for us, but mainly for our clients. What's all evolving? What do we need to do?"

So, fast forward, 2022, we bring Christina on board, got things back organized. She righted us. She has several years in the industry. We had known her from prior days, initially at Merrill Lynch. So, she was a tremendous asset to the team and opened us back up, so to speak. Summer of 2024, Chris and I said, "We need to figure out what we're going to do with this business going forward. What does it need to look like? What do we need to add?" And our two options were...I should say three options, do we just keep doing what we're doing and eventually retire, turn the lights off, and close the doors, and find new homes for our clients? So, three options, that was one.

The other was grow the practice or build the practice out ourselves, or merge and look for something that fit all or most of the requirements that we wanted for our clients. And it turned out looking for a partner and someone to merge with made the most sense for us.

Michael: So, what drew you away from the other paths, the keep what you're doing now that it's working with Christine, or grow the practice yourselves?

Wendy: Mainly, it was the clients because the clients' needs were expanding. The clients who had been with us many years, and now if we had multi-generations and the younger clients, what they needed, for example, technology-type things. What were we going to implement with that? Our older clients are now potentially going to need more bill pay services, accounting help. So, maybe if we had accounting in-house, they may need more help with technology in fraud, and estate planning, and financial planning.

So, to build that out, for us to find all those experts, not that they aren't out there, but the time to do that and to set it up. And that was really like starting a business all over again, going from three people to add all those entities that we thought really would be helpful and beneficial for the clients and for the business going forward. So, that took us to looking for a partner and doing a merge. So, fall of 2024, we went to Future Proof out in California. We're like, "This is the upcoming...everybody new and exciting is going to be there."

Michael: Yeah, this is where the people are now. They made there the place to see and be seen phenomenon, okay.

Wendy: Exactly. And coming from the world where we were like, "No meeting has ever taken place outside before or conference," so that was...it was very good. It was a good experience. So, we kicked off the interviewing and the process. We did it in a dual format. We had our firms that we sought out and looked at or researched. And then we went back to Mindy and Louis Diamond to help us out, and worked with Louis and put two lists together, and ruled firms out that weren't a fit. Either we didn't fit them, or they didn't fit us. And they were really helpful in that. Mindy went back. Mindy got me over the hump when we left Merrill and started our own business.

So, that was a full circle moment and going back to her and saying, "Hey, you helped us do this with our business 13 years ago, and now we want to do this with our business." And like that, we went from working with Mindy to working with Louis. So, things evolve and change. So, that took place the end of 2024. And we finalized, we got it down to four firms, narrowed it down to two. And July 1st of 2025, we merged with Composition Wealth.

The Criteria Wendy Used To Narrow Down Potential Merger Partners [55:25]

Michael: So, talk to us more about...because what I think of is the search and the filtering process. There are so many firms out there that want to do mergers and acquisitions. A lot of us just get inbound phone calls. I don't know if you were already fielding the inbound phone calls and outreach before you'd even started. So, just how do you filter through that? How did you figure out what's going to be a fit or not? How did you, I guess, make your own list of what criteria matter to you and what doesn't?

Wendy: Sure. When we were looking at that, and Chris did a lot or most of the filtering, but what was important to us was the size of the firm. And we did look at large to small and what that felt like and how they function. So, we didn't rule anybody out necessarily. We said, "Okay, let's look at the large firms. Let's pick two or three from there, the medium, and the small," to try to get a feel of what those different sizes meant and things that could be brought to the table.

Michael: And how did they feel to you? How did you distinguish large, versus medium, versus small?

Wendy: Assets, number of employees or people, and number of advisors and employment. The other thing was geographical location, which turned out to not be as big of an issue as we initially thought with technology and how people work and people working remote, which again was pretty new to us because obviously, Composition is located out on the West Coast and we're sitting in Columbus, Ohio. So, that ultimately was not a deterring factor.

Michael: So, you had expected you would need someone that had an Ohio or outright Columbus presence. And the conclusion was technology and remote is fine enough to make this work with a larger firm.

Wendy: Correct. I would say sitting here today, though it's being ironed out, the three-hour time difference, there have been a little glitches with that where we're like, "Ooh, this isn't happening because of our time difference." But it's just adjustment of schedule and how we work, and getting on a routine with our backups and Christina's backup. So, nothing that can't be worked out.

Michael: Okay. So, what else is feelings, differences you got between large, medium, small?

Wendy: One of the other criteria that we looked at was women in leading roles with the firms and/or advisor roles was important. And if not that, how did the leadership perceive females in the industry? And that just might be a sense of mine, though. Chris is very engaged in that. And there's things that he will notice more than I notice when it comes to male, female, or was that paid attention to, or is that important to them? Because it's very important to us as a firm. So, we looked at that.

The other thing with the firms were, were they in a mode of just trying to acquire and gather assets to be bigger in that sense, or were they looking to be very mindful in acquisitions and mergers because it was a right fit and the focus to the client was the same. Which is ultimately where we were. We needed someone or a firm that embraced what we did with our clients because we had been successful for so many years, and we didn't want to shake that up. And the client always needed to come first, and didn't always feel that way when doing that due diligence. So, some of it, yes, number-wise, and some of it is just a good feeling, gut feeling about it.

My other thing, and this was more probably me than Chris. One of my thoughts is we left the big world, broker-dealer, wirehouse, and the way things are going, one of my fears, and it was a question I asked everybody we met or talked with, was, do you foresee that all of this consolidation, that there's going to be four to six large RIAs that run the space? And other than one, the answer was absolutely not, that's not going to happen. And one said...

Michael: I'm assuming the one that said yes is because they intend to be one of those four to six?

Wendy: No, actually, the one that said yes, said it to me and said, "Wendy, the reality of it is yes, that could happen." That doesn't make it a bad thing. To me, it was a bad thing. And it's still a bad thing. Not that it can't...as long as the client...under the RIA space, as long as the client is the number one focus versus proprietary, where you left some of our past world. But one did say, "Yeah, that's a possibility. That could happen." And while I didn't like that answer, I was like, "Oh, actually, somebody said the reality of it. Yes, it could."

Michael: So, geography was a driver for you, but turned out not to be an issue. Women in the firm and the firm's support of women was a criteria for you. And it sounds like their purpose and vision, some version, are they building something in particular, or are they just getting bigger for the sake of was a driver for you?

Wendy: Correct.

Michael: Any other big factors that were driving this, or is that really the main core?

Wendy: I think that's the core. The other piece of that, and probably falls into that, is the firms who...the behind-the-scenes. You have the advisors, and you do what you do, but the visionaries and/or the people who are implementing things. So, data, the people working with Black Diamond, operational. There are tremendous young, not young, younger than us, knowledgeable minds out there. And that was great to see that. And we knew we needed that.

So, when we had the ability to talking to the people who was going to help, for example, with the transition on getting data and transferring data, the people are so smart and knowledgeable. And that was really fun to see and work with and know that going forward, things change, and also would be with the advisors, too. So, that next generation for us was very fun to see, and still is, as we're working with people.

Michael: So out of curiosity, why merger versus the various corporate RIA platform folks, where you can affiliate and they do stuff for you, but you're not necessarily merging with them. You're not necessarily transitioning equity and ownership and such. So, I guess I'm curious, was that a weighing factor for you or those alternatives? Was there a reason why you wanted the merger version and not one of those other affiliate-style platforms?

Wendy: We wanted ownership. We still wanted to be part of a team, just bigger. We wanted more teammates all working towards the same purpose. So, I think that was more so...and again, giving us the resources of all the other entities for our clients as far as their needs, but also having younger advisors that were part of the team or that we could work with. If I now bring on a new client and they're younger, maybe we partner with a younger advisor within Composition to help that. And I know that advisor. It just created for us, maybe more of a comfort level.

Michael: Okay. Because I guess, how would you frame the goal that you were trying to achieve in this? Because for some, it's exit, it's liquidity. It's cash out, chips off the table. It sounds like that was not necessarily the driver that started this for you.

Wendy: Correct. It was not we're going to do this merge, and we have a two- or three-year lifespan, and we're gone and done. Our goal was you accept us, and we're here working. And now we have newfound excitement, and time, and capacity, and joy with what we're doing because we're not doing all the back office stuff. So, it really came down to that.

Michael: So, what were the big things and you wanted to offload from that end? You mentioned earlier compliance was a part, picking tech was a part.

Wendy: Billing.

Michael: Okay.

Wendy: So, those were the big things. And they are big things.

Michael: Compliance, tech selection, and billing. Okay. And so as you went through this list and winnowed down, I think you said you finalized to four, then you narrowed from there to two. So, when you get to the point where I'm going to assume all your finalists were bigger for the right reasons, had good depth, had some capabilities, had geographic support, were supportive of women, what actually started to winnow down the final four, final two? What became important at that point to get to a final choice?

Wendy: We had said...when we moved from Merrill to do our own business, the move we made, the choices we made tended to be more of a move for me, for Wendy, as far as my comfort level, because I was more leery of leaving and going out on our own than Chris was. Chris was like, "Let's do this. We should have done this back in 2008, when the financial crisis hit," and we didn't move till 2013.

Michael: Were you both at Merrill at the time?

Wendy: Correct, yes. And so we made that move to create our own firm. And like I said, a lot of the decisions were driven by my comfort level. This time, when we made a change with our business, it was Chris's comfort level because Chris will work as long as he's capable, mentally capable to still do his job. He very much likes what he does. He's driven by the work. And he's like, "I'm not going anywhere. I love this." So, one of the things with our merge was you're getting us, and we don't have an expiration date at this point. We still want to work. We want to contribute. We're interested in growing and evolving. We're not done yet.

Michael: And that was a factor because some firms wanted you to have an expiration date, wanted you to be more limited in time, and move on?

Wendy: Yes.

Michael: Okay. Because they're doing their own retire advisors, bring young folks in thing. Okay.

Wendy: Or that's what it felt like.

Michael: Okay. Okay. So, how supportive were they for you to actually hang around for years or decades to come? Their supportiveness of that was a factor for you in the end.

Wendy: Yes.

Determining Deal Terms And Ongoing Compensation [1:09:15]

Michael: And so as you ultimately approached to doing this deal, ultimately, did you just trade your stock for their stock? It's like a roll in? Did you take the proverbial some chips off the table with some dollars in cash, or was the whole focus we can roll all of our equity, and we just want to be part of a bigger platform?

Wendy: It was a combination.

Michael: Okay. So, what drove the decision or the balance?

Wendy: We wanted equity and to be part of something that we thought could grow and be more encompassing. That was important to us. And we have stake in the game. We're not just saying, "Hey, cash out and be done." We wanted to feel like we had input, and not just that we had input, but maybe they want our input too. We have time on our side and things that we can offer down, just as new people can offer up.

Michael: And then how does it work on the other end, just in terms of, as I think of it, how you and Chris get paid at the end of the day? Did you go from being owners that get profits to being on the payroll with a salary, and now you're in a salaried world? Is it still a version like Merrill, you've got your revenue, the platform gets a percentage, and then you net what's left in your book? How did that side work? Because that's often a big change when you merge and stay from what you had in the past when you ran your own.

Wendy: It is currently salaried with a three-year window of keeping our business intact, which wasn't scary to us at all. And then having equity in the firm.

Michael: With the idea that equity gives growth and/or profit distributions as part of the cash flow?

Wendy: Yes.

Michael: And just what's the three-year window? What can they change after three years that they can't change in the first three years?

Wendy: Well, after the three years you do, it does have a little bit of a cycle of salary and/or the percentage, like the wirehouse world.

Michael: So, the idea is basically they'll hold your comp where it is for three years without having it shift around. And then after three years, we can go to a more percentage-based system once the dust is settled?

Wendy: Yes.

Michael: Okay. So, I was going to ask, how is it going from a world where the business was, right, it's gross revenue minus Christina and tech equals what you and Chris keep. And that's not how it works anymore.

Wendy: No, no. We have joked and said, "Oh, we are payroll." And what we did, it's not always about money. Like I had said, at one point, we were like, "Personally, were we set up enough that for Chris and I personally to exit the business and be fine financially?" The answer was we could have done that and possibly relocated our clients and help them find new advisors, and then shut the door, turn the lights off. We didn't want to do that. So, it wasn't a money...

Michael: But you could have.

Wendy: We could have. So, our decision wasn't necessarily based on money. We weren't looking for the highest…what's your business value worth? Clearly, we didn't want the lowest, and maybe somewhere in between, in figuring that number out. But it wasn't get the highest price for our business, and that's going to be the answer. There were many more important things. Again, clients leading that process.

Managing The Tech Stack Upheaval That Comes From A Merger [1:13:41]

Michael: So, what actually changed in, I guess, just the day-to-day life for you and Chris as you're now... You said last July, you did the deal. So, we're roughly a year in. So, what actually changed? How has this played out in practice?

Wendy: Our client relationships have remained the same. Everybody transitioned with us. Many clients really liked the new place we ended up. And when I say where we ended up, it's not Composition, but we went from Pershing to Schwab. So, we were repapering the whole book of business and clients like or seem pleased with Schwab. It's a big change for us from Pershing to Schwab. So, we've had to do that in addition with all our other technology platforms changed. So, day-to-day up to this point has been a big change internally.

Michael: I was going to say, so what else changed? So, custodian changed from Pershing to Schwab. What else changed?

Wendy: So, we had custodian change. Accounting, reporting went from Morningstar to Black Diamond, which was going to happen anyway, because Morningstar...

Michael: Because Morningstar Office was shutting down.

Wendy: Correct. So, we knew that was going to happen anyway. Our CRM email went from Redtail, Zimbra, to Salesforce and Outlook. Financial planning went from MoneyGuide Pro to eMoney. Video conferencing, still Zoom. We use Zoom, but now have Microsoft Teams, which is very different for us. Fortunately, Docusign has stayed the same. But all of our platforms changed.

Michael: Well, yeah, when you change custodian, portfolio management, CRM, and financial planning software, those are the three or four anchor things for the business. So, literally, everything that matters changed.

Wendy: Yes. And like I said, the clients were awesome. And they signed their documents, they got logged in, they're in the portals. They have been great. It's been...I think the bigger change clearly is internally for us. And again, we are a year in, so a lot of the stuff has been learned, and we've been taught. But there's things that I'm like, "I know how to do this, but I don't remember exactly where to go." And to get that done...

Michael: It's just you got to relearn everything.

Wendy: Relearn everything. And one of the things was they changed our phones over because now they're part of the teams. And two of the three of us wanted physical phones still, and not just a headset hooked up to the computer. Our phones didn't work for a few days. And I think I commented earlier that when our phone rings, we answer the phone. We really struggled with that.

Michael: Assuming the phone is capable of ringing.

Wendy: We really struggled with that. We had also had it set up. The phone would ring, and all three of us could see the phone ring or that line ring and pick it up and answer it. Under the new system, they were like, "Well, everybody is tied to their own number. The client will call this number. And if you're on the phone, it's just going to go to voicemail." And we were like, "No, if we're here, it's not going to voicemail." Technology has to allow for that role. And there still are some quirks that show up, but at least now the phone rings.

Michael: Okay. Again, that's the fascinating realm of, right, we made the technology so efficient to get direct numbers to all the people and auto voicemail. It's like, "But why can't we just make it easy for someone else to pick up the phone if you're busy?" Like, "Oh." The way the phones used to work, why would we still do that? I'm like, "Because it's good service."

Wendy: Well, and in those couple of days, there were two different clients who called. We saw them calling. We could see them, but we couldn't answer. We're like, "We see you, but we couldn't pick it up." They were calling back, and/or we called them, and they were like, "Well, I kept calling because nobody answered." If nobody answered, something's wrong.

Michael: Right, because they know you always answer. And so it sounds like the dust, at least, has mostly settled on those transition issues, a few lurking things, but much of that, at least, they figured out how to get it to where it needs to be.

Wendy: Yes, yes.

Michael: And just, how did clients take this news of, we're selling the firm, we're not selling the firm, we're merging the firm?

Wendy: The clients were great. And we had clients that beforehand were like, "Why are you doing this? Why don't you do something?" And we had clients when we were at Merrill were like, "Go out on your own. Go do your own thing." So, many clients were encouraging. And we also prefaced it as we need these new teammates and new resources, or additional resources, and if not specific for them, but for the other clients. And they were really on board with that and supportive. Like I said, a lot of these clients have been with us so many years. So, that evolution, I think they embraced it personally for us, and they seemed okay with it.

Michael: And so how do you feel now on the other side of the deal? How does time feel for you and Chris? It sounds like that was a driver in the first place. You didn't like the things that your time was getting pulled towards.

Wendy: I think now, a year out, we can see more clearly that part of it. We did this for time and that we can focus back to what we do and where we add value. There were times in this past year that were like, "This is crazy. It's taking more time, and it's not..." And again, it was our time. It wasn't the clients'. The clients weren't being affected by it like we were. At least they didn't tell us they were, and we tried to shelter that. It was more of an internal adjustment for us. And probably because we just went through all the tech platform changes.

Michael: Well, yeah, it's like everything changed. So, how long did it take before you felt like you were actually getting settled into the new platform, new systems?

Wendy: Oh, I would say within six months, we were pretty good. The process and putting things in Salesforce might be a little bit of a lag. And I don't know necessarily that that is us, Composition, or Salesforce in and of itself. I think it's just a different process than what we had. There were many things that... If a client called and said, "We need to do this," I could hang up the phone, and I could actually just do it, and/or Christina could do it.

Now, our team wants to do it, and I get it, and it makes sense, and that's what we wanted, but the steps of getting there, and like, "Okay, I can't just do this directly. Now I have to put it in a case and assign it to somebody, and they do it." It's just a different process.

What Surprised Wendy The Most Building Her Advisory Business [1:22:04]

Michael: So, as you reflect back on this journey, not just the Composition transition, but 25 years into this growth journey, what surprised you the most about building your own advisory business?

Wendy: I think what has surprised me over the years is how many truly amazing people you are exposed to, crossing over all walks of life, be it with our clients, with our peers, with athletes, visionaries. We had a client who's long passed, but she led the first all-women team to go to Antarctica back in 1969. Just surprised that we have that ability to run into all those people and learn so many things that people have accomplished and experienced.

The Low Point On Wendy's Journey [1:23:08]

Michael: So, what was the low point for you on this journey?

Wendy: Well, I think low points and high points are a series. So, I think you have more than one high point and more than one low point. Low point, one of them, and a few jump out in mind, a low point was 2008, waking up with no power, and learning that Merrill Lynch was acquired by Bank of America.

Michael: Oh, yeah.

Wendy: We had always assumed that was a possibility. I don't know that we thought Bank of America would have been the answer at the time. So, that was a little bit of a low point. And back at Merrill Lynch, you were very committed and loyal, and it was a great place and foundation to be, and in an instant, that changed. So, that was a low point. Another low point, and more recently, because it's also a high point of this latest journey we took, and with our business and merging with Composition.

But during that, in that final phase, Chris suddenly lost his dad at the beginning of 2025. Simultaneously, my mom was diagnosed with two forms of Stage 4 cancer, and my dad needed to be cared in a nursing home, all while we were doing this business transition. And again, it's also a high point. So, it sometimes is how you look at things. And the other low point, and it is getting better, is the number of females and smart, creative, talented women who are in the industry. When I started, it was very small, and it's slowly getting more. So, again, low point and high point from 1998 to now. And I guess I have to recap, and the phones in there was a low point.

Michael: Okay. Yeah, I understand the frustration. We literally pride ourselves on the service of picking up the phone, and nothing happens when we pick up the phones.

Wendy's Advice For Her Younger Self And For Newer Advisors [1:25:26]

Michael: So now, as you reflect back, what are the...I don't know, I think of these as the pearls of wisdom we gain from experience that you wish you could go back and tell you ten, 20-plus years ago. Now you know.

Wendy: Oh, I know, so many things. It probably would be that it's one of the greatest professions where you're able to help people and help them be successful while you are also successful. And when I think the success, we were... Somebody had said very early on, it's the greatest profession, and you only have to work half days, 12 hours from when you hit the office. And it's just been a great profession.

Michael: And you didn't realize that coming in? That had to be experienced over time?

Wendy: I do think you do have to experience that over time. And that hard work. Put the time in. Put the time in up front.

Michael: So, what other advice then would you give younger, newer advisors coming into the profession today and looking forward to their careers?

Wendy: Have faith in the process. When you're starting in the business or if you're growing your business, for example, in a training program…back in the day, Merrill Lynch had a great training program, great foundation, and trusting that process of how to grow your business at the time. And I'm sure it has changed, and there would be things I would do differently now too, but what is working and trusting the process, giving your effort to it, and it will pay off. Trusting it, being consistent with it, gathering information, and embracing it.

What Success Means To Wendy [1:27:37]

Michael: So, as we come to the end, this is a podcast about success, and just one of the themes that comes up, that word success means different things to different people. Sometimes it changes for us through the proverbial seasons of life. And so you built this wonderfully successful business as it's growing past $1.5 million of revenue and $240 million of assets. So, the business seems in a wonderful place, and you and Chris sound charged up for more growth from here. How do you define success for yourself personally at this point?

Wendy: Being true to personal and business principles. And this is a team, the three of us working here. Chris, Christina, and I, we're a team, and now with Composition, we're just a bigger team.

Michael: So, how does that change and evolve in your world, your definitions of success?

Wendy: A growth and accomplishment, and part of what we do personally is our business when you're owning your own business. So, growth and accomplishment and being able to share that. It's shared with us internally here. It's shared with our families. It's shared with clients.

Michael: I love that. I love that. Well, thank you, Wendy, for joining us on the "Financial Advisor Success" podcast.

Wendy: Well, thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

Michael: Absolutely.