What ‘Jobs’ Have You Given Money (That Shape How You Give Advice)?: Kitces & Carl Ep 174

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***Editor's Note: Can't get enough of Kitces & Carl? Neither can we, which is why we've released it as a podcast as well! Check it out on all the usual podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts (iTunes), Spotify, and YouTube Music.

Show Notes

• Steal Like an Artist: 10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative by Austin Kleon
• The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko
• The Vulnerability Hangover (Dr. Meghaan Lurtz on The Untamed Ethos podcast)
• Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber
• On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs: A Work Rant (the article), by David Graeber
• 50 Fires With Debbie Millman:
• 50 Fires With Krita Tippett

Kitces & Carl Transcript

Carl: Greetings, Michael. How are you?

Michael: I'm doing well, Carl. I'm doing well. How are you?

Carl: I am really good. I want to tell you a little story...

Michael: Okay. Oh, I like story time. I like story time.

Carl: ...and see how you reply. We recently had some friends here. In fact, it was on the 4th of July. We had some friends here on the 4th of July. They're both journalists. So they think about this stuff a lot. In fact, one of them has been writing about money for close to 20 years now. So these are people who think about money and particularly around the news angle of money. They've been thinking about it for a long time. They're here for lunch on the 4th of July. And I told them about this idea I've had. It came from conversations that I've had with people, and I'm sort of curious. If money walked in, if we had somebody join us right now, and it was a third screen on the Zoom thing, and you let him in, and it just said money...

Michael: I will...

Carl: You always like that.

Michael: We do have a waiting room on these Zoom rooms, so no one crashes us. But if anyone tried to enter the room and it just says 'Money', I will admit them into the room.

Carl: Yes, yes, we'll let them in.

Questions To Define One's Relationship With Money [01:24]

Carl: So here's my question to you. There's two parts to the question. I'm just going to take the second part because of time. No, we're going to do both parts. What would you ask money if it was in this call with us? If you had a chance, money walks into the room, what would you ask money?

Michael: Actually, I don't know.

Carl: We've got time. It's okay.

Michael: For anyone who wonders whether we practice and rehearse these in advance, the answer is very much no. I have no idea where Carl is going, which is when we get to fun moments like this.

Carl: What would you ask money?

Michael: What would I...?

Carl: What question would you have for it?

Michael: I don't know. I'm really struggling with this just because, I don't know, it's a thing. It's a tool for me. Money has always been... just for me, it's a means to an end. It's the enabler that lets you do the things that you want to do. So I'm like, I don't...

Carl: You wouldn't have any questions.

Michael: I don't think I'd respect its answers.

Carl: Okay. So we're going to get to the second part. Let me give you... One that was really interesting to me recently was I was having this conversation with Austin Kleon, the author of "Steal Like an Artist" and other books. And he was like, "Oh, I would say, 'Whose lives have you ruined?'" Yeah, I was like, "Wow." And he said, "No, actually, what I would do is, 'Whose lives have you ruined, and whose lives have you made better?'" And then he amended that question and said, "Who's been able to handle you, and how?" So I thought that was fascinating. So here's the second question.

Michael: Actually, which also interests me even in the context of the comment that I made as well, the money isn't giving him the answer. The money is connecting him to the witnesses and the people who do, right? He didn't ask money, "How do I handle you?" He asked money, "Who's been able to handle you? And what did they do?"

Carl: Yeah. No. Yeah, that's a really good point.

Michael: Money bears witness.

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Okay. Here's the other question. So, if you had a chance to talk to money, what do you think money would say to you? I'll let you think about it for a minute. Not a lot of pressure because I've had a lot of time to think about this. I've sort of put you on the spot, but that was kind of the point.

Michael: What do you think money would...?

Carl: What would money say to you?

Michael: Trying to figure out how to verbalize this. What would money say to you? "You seem to be pretty comfortable with me," right, I think, is an observation. In part, probably for being a financial advisor and just being drawn in the direction of personal finance, which led me to a financial planning career, I'm pretty comfortable with money conversations around money things in a way that a lot of people are not. I'm comfortable around being able to accumulate some money but not necessarily having it drive or control outcomes for me.

Carl: Nice. Nice. No, I love that.

Michael: That's not meant to be self-congratulatory or anything. I have to reflect on that relative to clients that I've sat across from over the years. I never particularly got caught up in the cycle of, "I need to spend money on things to show worth or value or the rest." In The Millionaire Next Door, one of their metrics for people who tend to accumulate wealth is that...I forgot what their label was, it was something like social indifference, which is essentially you don't get caught up in keeping up with the Joneses because you don't really care what the Joneses say or think about you. I score at the top of that metric. My wife just told me that my beat-up, piece-of-junk car is getting so old that, next year, I'll be eligible for antique plate on it in the state of Virginia. And just to put this in context...

Carl: You have to get those.

Michael: I'm going to because it's a crappy 2006 Kia hatchback. [Producer's note: his car is blue.] So I am so in for my 20-year-old antique plate. The business is good well.

Carl: You've earned those.

Michael: I could afford more than a 20-year-old Kia. I'm like, "I just don't care." I just don't care.

Carl: That's so good.

Michael: I'm not trying to judge others who do, but that's just not a spending loop.

Carl: Yeah. Well, the reason, and by the way, I want to be really clear, because we have some very thoughtful people who listen to this show who send in really thoughtful, I don't know, critiques about the use of questions, which I am very grateful and I'm being honest about that. I'm not suggesting this is a good question for clients. I just think it's fun. And what it leads to and what it led to with these friends that were here on the 4th of July, what it led to was a whole discussion about enough. Because my answer to what I think money would say to me, and I have this vision of this super disappointed golden retriever. A golden retriever is the perfect, earnest, wants so bad...

Michael: Money is like a golden retriever to you. You have to play this a little more.

Carl: I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. But a golden retriever is earnest. They want so bad to please their owner. That's the epitome. The golden retriever is the perfect character. But it's disappointed. And what it would be disappointed about is, "Bro, all those jobs you gave me. I tried the happiness thing. I tried the enough, the security. It turns out I'm just zeros and ones. I can't do those things. You gave me a job that I cannot do."

Michael: So the money is the sad golden retriever because it was trying so hard to make you happy, to give you security, to make you feel better.

Carl: Because that's what I asked of it, right? And again, this is different. This is what's historically been my story, right? And because I asked it to do that, like, "Hey, man." And it was trying. And it's finally coming to the conclusion, "Bro, you gave me a job I can't do. I'm a zero and one that's stored in the cloud. I got nothing to do with that whole happiness thing." But the reason I want to talk about this was just this concept, and we had talked about this idea of the greatest risk. What was that saying? You had a quote from me about enough.

Michael: Oh, the one you sent me was… “There's nothing more expensive than chasing a dream that isn't yours.”

Carl: Yeah. All of these things, right? And recently, I was working on some writing and the idea of there will never be enough money to buy out all your fears. And so I'm just so curious about this idea that there'll never be enough money to pay for all your fears. I like buyout: get rid of. There will never be enough money to get rid of all your fears. But chasing dreams that aren't yours, having enough. What jobs have you given money? I'm not suggesting that any of these are good client conversation tools. They might be. I'm not suggesting that they are. I'm simply suggesting these are interesting thought exercises for us to go through, right? As advisors, it's interesting for us to go through, but it's also interesting as a lens for our conversation with clients. Again, I don't know that I would ask... This is another question. What jobs do you think money is uniquely good at? What jobs is money not good at? That's an interesting question. Because if I've given money a job that it's not good at, I'm going to be disappointed, and so was it, because it's a golden retriever. You know what I mean?

Michael: It's trying so hard. It's trying so hard.

Carl: So it's just trying so hard. It's so earnest.

Deeper Financial Conversations Vs The 'Authenticity Hangover' [11:26]

Carl: So I guess what I wanted to talk a little bit about is, what do you make of all that? Are these conversations we're having? Should we be having these conversations? How come nobody talks about money like this?

Michael: Yeah. My first thought in our context as advisors is these are interesting questions to ask ourselves and reflect upon. I'll admit I got a little, I don't know, stumped, as it were, of what would you ask money, because I don't respect its answers.

Carl: I know. It's everything I can do to not want to dive deep on that response, right? But we'll just let it go.

Michael: But questions like, "What jobs have you given money?" I know this is a reflection question that feels a little more natural and an interesting opening door. What jobs have I given money, right? If I want to get literal, money was independence because it was my first car, so I could finally drive and be free of my parents. And money was the savings that let me quit my job and launch this website, where I would just write things on the internet and try to get paid for it. The whole trajectory of the business platform that we built over the past, probably now, 17 years is because there was a bit of money savings, because I got some good raises in my 20s and kept living with the buddies that I moved in with immediately after graduation, and it meant I could save a lot of money for a couple of years. And I just put a bunch of it in a bank account, saying, "Someday, I might want to try something, and it would be nice to have this available." And when the business went well, that money was the money for our wedding and the down payment for our house. All I did was follow these steps.

So, when I think about, "What jobs have you given money?" there's stuff there, and I could probably unpack further, what does it mean that it enabled some career changes and then it transformed into the house that we still live in? It's been on an interesting journey with us.

Carl: Yeah. Yeah. And again, I want to be really clear, I'm not suggesting these are first meeting questions. I'm not suggesting they're questions at all.

Michael: This feels hard. It's one thing to say this is an interesting reflection question as an advisor. Do we understand our own thoughts and relationship with money? This feels hard as questions. Certainly, as a prospect, or even as a client. Either we're quite deep into the relationship or you really came to me because my specialization is helping people through big transformative moments with money and they're having all these existential questions about themselves. These are my thought-provoking questions to help them through that journey.

Carl: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it was interesting. We were recently visiting our daughter in California University, and she brought one of her friends to the beach one morning. And we were eating yogurt and granola and berries on the beach. And she asked some questions super-fast, and she said, "Oh, is that okay? My mom taught me to go deep fast." And I was like, "I love people who can go deep fast, but not all of us are comfortable."

Michael: Right. Some of us are super uncomfortable with people who go deep. I'm assuming she said, "I'm sorry. My mom told me that," because she has done that in circumstances where it didn't go well that she needed to explain it.

Carl: I agree. And of course, my wife and I are super that way, too. So we're like, "No, no, this is great," and we were all in. But most people...I think it was Meghaan Lurtz that pointed out the idea of authenticity hangover, the idea of, even if you get through it, you may wake up the next day and just be like, "What did I just tell that person?" So I'm not suggesting it, but I do think... Here's the thing I think.

Michael: So that's the authenticity hangover, when you get clients to really, really open up, and then, the next morning, they're going like...

Carl: "I never want to see that person again."

Michael: "I told them too much. I never want to see them again."

Carl: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of these things. But here's the thing that I'm fascinated by, is I can't believe the hunger people have, and this is mainly my experience at "50 Fires," I can't believe the hunger people have to want to be in that conversation. Sorry, that may be not the right word. They don't know what the conversation is going to be like, but afterwards, they always say, "That was amazing. Thank you so much." So there seems to be a hunger to want to talk about things that matter. And the other thing that's interesting to me is the number of those kind of games where there's a prompt.

I was just in a brainstorming meeting with, I think, one of the... Yeah, you would all know the company he works for. He's the head of creative at a giant company that you would all know. And the first time I met him, we sat down in this conference room with two other people. And there's these cards all on the table, and you had to... It was just different pictures, and the first one I saw was a set of tools, and then there was another one with a person kind of covering their heads. And you picked one, and then they asked, "Why did you pick that picture?" And somebody would always go kind of shallow, and the next person would go deep. And the person who went shallow would be, "Hey, can I have my turn back?"

So there does seem to be a hunger to have more meaningful conversations. And I'm not suggesting it's an advisor's role to have them. I'm just saying it's very interesting that people want to make sense of this thing they call money. And they know there's something beyond the spreadsheet, the calculator, and a plan. And nobody's ever given them the space, the opportunity, or the tools to have those conversations around things like 'enough' or meaning or what job you've given it.

When Are People 'Ready' To Interrogate Their Relationship With Money? [18:44]

Michael: This is a genuine question, not leading: do you have to be in a certain place in life or career to want those questions, to be ready for those questions? Are there multiple milestones, particular points, where those are maybe conversations we want to have more and, likewise, times where we want to have the conversation less?

Carl: I love that question. I do not know the answer to that question, but I have an assumption that the answer is, yeah, it depends on... Because if you had tried to ask me anything like this when I was 25, I would have just been like, "Bro, what are you on about? Let's go ski," you know what I mean? And my kids seem to want to have these conversations. So I don't know if there's a cultural change. I do notice, younger, in their 20s, more conversation about meaning and a desire to want to contribute.

And again, this is a direct quote of a book title. It involves a little farm language. But that book that was called, we'll just abbreviate, called "BS Jobs," right? This is one of the situations where the essay was actually... Look, I apologize. The book is awesome, but the essay was really great. And so, what it was highlighting was just some crazy number of knowledge workers, sort of white-collar workers, who said, not only did they not find their job fulfilling, they actually knew it was a BS job. They knew it was made up. And I think we're getting a backlash against that, a little bit of, "What does that do to a human?" you know what I mean? If you know, not only are you not contributing, it's just worthless.

Michael: So then, in that vein, are these money conversations, or are these meaning conversations?

Carl: That's a great question. And is there a difference?

Michael: Well, unless you believe money is meaning, there's some, right? I guess, getting back to the earlier comment, yeah, why do I not particularly respect money's answer to the question if I ask money? Because I'm not asking money about meaning questions.

Carl: Yeah. I think that that's a good...

Michael: I'd rather read some philosophers or something like that.

Carl: Yeah, what I would say is...

Michael: I don't think it's going to give any good and helpful answers.

Carl: You're right, it wouldn't give you… But turning any resource, any source of capital, time, energy, money, attention, and using it in a way that's aligned with a meaningful life is the way I would phrase that. Turning money into meaning. Using money in ways that help with meaning. Using my time in a way that helps with meaning. I think that's the question that people are probably asking. Like you said, it's just a tool. It's not meaning in and of itself. It's a tool. Maybe, if you care about this, it's a tool to help you with meaning. It's a tool to help you with the difference you want to see in the world. It's a tool for impact.

Michael: Correct.

Carl: Yeah. No, I like that. Yeah.

Michael: I don't ask the tool for what it's for. I come up with a purpose, and I go find the tool that I need, right?

Carl: Love that. Yeah. And I think...

Michael: Otherwise, you get... Now, I just want to play with the tool analogy, right? Otherwise, you get, when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I don't want money's opinion on meaning and the things that it can solve, because it's probably going to suggest a lot of things that I don't believe it can solve.

Carl: Yeah, it's like a screwdriver trying to convince you to use it to wash the window. That's a bad example. But I think what's interesting to me just is, I think, back to the jobs, most of us, when we think of money, whether we admit it or not, or whether we realize it or not, we've somehow assigned it a job that it can't do, right? If we just get this amount, we will have enough. We will feel like we have enough. This use of money will make me happy, right? Or 'secure'… help me feel secure. And I think that, somewhere, we lost that plot.

You haven't lost the plot, right? Money is a tool. And I just think it's interesting for us to have those conversations at the very least. I'm doing this a lot at speaking engagements with advisors, I think we talked about it, where I just draw the money symbol on the screen and ask advisors, "What's the first thought that comes to mind?" And advisors don't say spreadsheet, medium of exchange, store of capital. They say apathy, fear, excitement, love. "I love money. Yay." That was one that somebody wrote down. That's super fascinating, right? Those are all feelings, not spreadsheets.

Opportunities In Clients' Lives For Deeper Conversations About The Purpose Of Money [24:36]

Michael: Is there a client application for this? Is this more about our own journey of self-reflection, as it were? Is this about our own journey as advisors? I can't help but think of parallels to the world of therapy. When people learn to be therapists, they go through therapy, because you learn in the process to unpackage some of your own baggage and bias, which ultimately then helps you to show up more effectively for your patients. So, is there some version of, " er, heal thyself first?" Financial advisor, get clear on your relationship with money first so that it doesn't unduly influence the way you give advice to clients.

Carl: Yeah, I'm really glad that there's super smart people working on that kind of stuff in our industry, right? We could all point to people who have been working on this. Klontzes, and Rick Kahler, and Kristy Archuleta, and Meghaan Lurtz, and all of that stuff. But I can't help but think that my relationship with money had a pretty big impact on how I gave other people advice about how to handle their money. How could that not be true? And what to do about it? I'm just asking questions here. What to do about it is another subject. But in terms of client application, at the very least, I think it's a useful set of lenses to view client answers and/or behavior through, especially, the jobs lens. I don't know that you ever even ask the client, but it's interesting to be thinking, and maybe you do, it's interesting to be thinking, "Oh, is this resistance to this advice I'm giving?" This has come up a lot lately in conversations, successful retirees not enjoying retirement. Well, is that...?

Michael: Because I retire when I get the money, and then the money will do the things. And then I get the money to retire, and I don't get the feelings I was supposed to get.

Carl: I don't know how to do the things anymore, right? I'm out of practice in terms of spending on enjoyment because I was so frugal. Well, is that a job I've given? Does money get a job of making me continue to feel safe and secure no matter what? Because there will never be enough money to take care of all those fears.

Michael: Which starts resonating with me. Yes, I can think of clients over the years where, yeah, basically, accumulating money was to make the scary things go away. And because the scary things never totally go away, there was never enough money to accumulate.

Carl: Yeah, I must get more.

Michael: Stopped, yeah.

Carl: Yeah. How about a relationship? "I don't have a great relationship with my kids because I've been working so hard for the last 10 years. I'm in my mid-50s. I'm not retired. And, man, I don't understand. I give them everything they ever wanted.” Right? Well, okay, interesting. Is that a job I've given money to actually help me have a better relationship by giving them everything I wanted and I'm not getting it? It's, at the very least, an interesting lens to view the world. I love it as questions. And I ask this to people on the plane, you know what I mean? But that's just me because I'm a nutcase, you know what I mean? And I do this for... The "50 Fires" podcast is just an experiment of how wacky of the questions can I ask Debbie Millman or Krista Tippett?

Michael: All I hear when I hear that, I'm like, "Carl, you are the reason that I bring earbuds on airplanes."

Carl: That's so good. That's exactly... I actually don't. I'm normally pretty tired. But if I get a chance, I'm going to just be, "Oh, I write about money." And then they're going to say, "What?" And going to saying, "Oh, you know what, can we play a little game?" And they'll ask some crazy, wacky question. And very rarely does somebody just say, "Ah," and slip their earbud, or, "What's for lunch?"

Michael: No, no, no. I feel like you're one of those people, when you sit down next to me, the earbuds just stay on the whole plane ride until we land, Carl.

Carl: That's right. Well, at the very least, thanks for engaging in a series of questions, Michael.

Michael: Absolutely. Thank you, Carl.

Carl: Yeah, cheers